Amiga Tools 3/Amiga Tools 3.iso/grafik/raytracing/imagine/tips/arc35.txt

Text File | 1993-04-09 | 129KB | 3,418 lines

IMAGINE archive: collected off of [e-mail]

ARCHIVE XXXV
Mar. 26 '93 - Apr. 7 '93

If you have questions or problems with this file, email Marvin Landis
at [e-mail]

note: each message seperated by a '##'

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Subject: Re: X-Specs... Beyond The Screen
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 93 19:39:57 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Alan Price)

The subject of getting an object to appear that it is floating
between the screen and the viewer appears to be limiting itself
to using Imagine's default 'seperation' settings.

A very quick and easy way to get this effect would be to set up
a staging file and have an object chosen as the foreground (e.g.
a sphere.) You should set your camera where you want it and then
target the camera NOT AT the sphere, but at a point somewhere just
behind it. Render this frame as the right-eye view and then move
the camera a few units to the left and TARGET the camera to the
SAME place that the previous position was targeted. Render this
frame and then use an Xspecs utility to create the interleaved
stereo image of the two viewpoints.

This can also be achieved from within imagine by careful adjustment
of the eye seperation settings in the config file. The explanation
in the manual can be understood with SEVERAL re-readings and inter-
pretations. I haven't played with this in a while but I can
go home and remind myself of the settings if anyone wants to discuss
it later. Using Imagine alone, I have created DCTV animations of
a forest where a glass egg seems to be rotating in front of the
screen.

The important thing to remember is that the convergence point of
the line-of-sights of each camera is the plane of depth that the
eye will see as being the surface of the monitor's screen.
E.G.- if a small object (without much depth) is at the exact location
of the two eye's convergence point, it will not be rendered as
a double image but as one. Since you are also perceiving the
frame of the monitor as a single image this is the common plan
e of depth. If an object is beyond the convergence point then
the image will be 'doubled' with the right-eye's objects being
rendered further to the right of the left-eye's view of the same
object. Thus your eyeballs have to spread out to join the images
together to see it properly. This makes you feel liek your are looking
into the screen deeper. Inversely if the object is in FRONT of
the convergence point, then the images render so that you must
cross your eyes to see it and it seems to be in front of the
screen.

The SECOND very important thing to remember is that if you want
an object to appear that it is floating in front of the screen,
the key word is FLOATING. The object must not be cropped on any side
by the edges of the image for either eye. This will confuse
the image as it will look like the object is being chooped off
by something that is supposed to be BEHIND it. This is why the
most effective 3D scenes in movies is when somebody (standing
behind the screens plane) reaches slowly with their arm straight
towards you and their hand seems to be right in front of your
face.

There is more than one approach to created stereo images. I
find this theory to work best for me. Another approach has it
that if you just have both 'eyes' stare straight ahead without
a parallax point, that the viewer will percieve depth as they
look around the scene. This, I think is the initial way that
the Imagine settings are. It does not give good results for
'front screen' effects. The realationship in Imagine works on
the size values of the camera and the value set in the config
file. I'm sorry I can't give exact figures at the moment but
I figured if I didn't respind now, I probably procrastinate
and never do it. I hope this helps anyone.

AP.


##

Subject: Imagine, DCTV, and ViewTek v1.04
Date: 26 Mar 93 09:51:44 EST
From: Jonathan Hirschman <[e-mail]>

Mike,

I had the same problems with using Viewtek with DCTV animations.  Try
adjusting your overscan prefs, and all will be well.  I needed to bring my
overscan center (I believe it was text prefs, strangely enough) up a couple
of clicks to get it to work.

Jonathan Hirschman


##

Subject: Anim-7
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 93 09:18:56 CST
From: [e-mail] (Thomas E. Smith)

To whoever it was that suggested the AAP & AAC programs from the Fred Fish
disks, thank you :) Sorry I don't still have your post to thank you by name.
For anyone interested, it is on disk 779, and it can build anim7 files
from iff pictures. I've tried it on HAM pictures, and it works great.

Now for my question :) I'm trying to use it with DCTV pictures, and can't
get this to work at all. DCTV pictures are just regular 3 or 4 bitplane
HAM pictures, so I don't see why it is having trouble. Has anyone else
tried this?

                                                 Tom Smith


##

Subject:      RE:Imagine, DCTV, and ViewTek v1.04
Date:         26 Mar 93 08:44:12 CST6CDT
From: "Mike Jiang"  <[e-mail]>

> In Message 25 Mar 93 16:58:21 CST6CDT,
>   "Mike Jiang"  <[e-mail]> writes:
>
> >Hi,
> >    I just got a copy of viewtek and changed some of my Imagine anims
> >to Anim7.  They play much faster.  But when I tried it with a 30
> >frame quarterscreen DCTV anim there was no DCTV output.  The RGB
> >screen looked normal and the animation was centered.
> >    I remember someone saying on this list that it had to do with
> >Viewtek chopping off the DCTV data when there was overscan.  Is this
> >the problem or do I have no idea what I'm talking about.
> >
> >Mike Jiang
>
>
>           Hi Mike,
>
>     What are your configuration ?
>                                                 - FARGET Vincent -
>

    I have a A2000 with the ECS runing 2.04.  A GVP 25Mhz '030 Combo
with a 80 meg HD.  And of course a DCTV.

Mike Jiang

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum."    | email==> [e-mail]  |
| "I think that I think,              | or    [e-mail]  |
|  therefore I think that I am."      |                              |
----------------------------------------------------------------------


##

Subject: Re: Global Reflection
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 93 19:33:29 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Michael B. Comet)

>
>HELP. i have a scene set up consisting of 3 actors and a
>global map for reflection. There is also a ground object.
>when rendered in scanline the ground and global map reflect
>nicely in the intended objects. NOW THE PROBLEM.
>
>I wanted to put a "dome" over the scene, like a dome over a city.
>I wanted the dome to also reflect the global map and ground.
>I used a sphere primitive, sliced it in half, and gave it
>very chrome like attributes. I placed it over the other actors and
>rendered. the dome only reflected the ground, not the global
>map. when I moved the camera outside the dome for a test I
>could then see the ground AND the global map! WHY CAN'T
>I SEE THE GLOBAL MAP INSIDE THE DOME.
>
>

    Well....this makes sense.  The global map could be considered to
be the sky, thus if you are inside the dome, and the ground is under it
perfectly, how could the picture of the sky possible be seen.  Ie: think
of it this way, if you are sitting in a closed room, anything outside of
the room wouldn't be seen or reflected.

    Perhaps a way around this make half a half a sphere - ie: 1/4 of
a sphere or so, and always have it moving and rotating with the camera
so it gives the illusion of being a whole dome.



--
+======================================================================+
|  Michael B. Comet -   Software Engineer / Graphics Artist  - CWRU    |
|  [e-mail]  - "Silence those who oppose the freedom of speech" |
+======================================================================+


##

Subject: Re: Global Reflection
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 93 0:36:18 EST
From: Steve J. Lombardi <[e-mail]>

>     Well....this makes sense.  The global map could be considered to
> be the sky, thus if you are inside the dome, and the ground is under it
> perfectly, how could the picture of the sky possible be seen.  Ie: think
> of it this way, if you are sitting in a closed room, anything outside of
> the room wouldn't be seen or reflected.
>
Michael and others who had the same response,
Yes, that is the logical answer but not quite correct. In the real
world putting a steel dome over a city would block out a view of the sky from
within the dome. However a global map in imagine is seen everywhere...
inside a solid cube, under a dome.... other objects in the city still reflect
the global map, but not the dome. I appreciate everyone's efforts in
 helping with my problem, but the logical answer doesn't seem to be the
correct one here. Im off to the test renders once again!
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
                    | why would he be such a jerk? i know that he doesn't smoke
steve lombardi      | drugs. and he doesn't do cocaine. and he doesn't shoot
[e-mail] | smack. and he doesn't even drink beer. Why would he be
                    | such a fu*ker to me? --WEEN


##

Subject: AsimVTR!!!
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 93 1:10:30 EST
From: Steve J. Lombardi <[e-mail]>

Let me start by stating that I have no affiliation with AssimWare
What so ever and don't wan't any shit for plugging a commercial
product here. It seems that this may be an economical way for
folks who have been doing a lot of talking about cheap single framing
to get their anims to tape. for a lot of purposes not requiring
resolutions greater than 736X290 it should do nicely. My mini review
after only owning the program for a few hours:

I picked up AsimVTR for 59$ from creative. it installs in a minute using
the standard installer. you need to dedicate a Harddrive partition
( or a whole drive) to the program for storage of your images in
it's own custom format. There are three basic steps involved in getting
an animation going. I was running an anim in about 15 minutes.

step one - start the program and identify the partition you wish to use.
the program will then do the custom formatting of the drive. This takes
about 2 minutes.

step 2 - identify the frames of your animation to be copied from
your regular disk to the custom partition. You can either tell it to
read an ascii script youve previosly created listing each frame
or call up a file requestor and select multiple frames. They
are then moved to the custom partition at about the same speed as a
standard copy.

step 3 - select PLAY from the menu and sit back and enjoy.

No need to worry about big frame deltas as each full fram of animation
is fully read as it is needed. a simple vcr like control panel lets you
pause, single step forward and back and play full speed forward and back.
DCTV is well supported including a control panel that can sit on top
of the DCTV images. You're no doubt wondering how fast they play back
here are my personal findings.

A drive with a high sustained transfer rate is the biggest factor. the
speed increase from a 68000 to a 68030 is only a few frames per second.
however a nice fast harddrive can more than double these figures.

I dedicated a 20 meg partition of my 120 meg Maxtor for animations.
sorry it's late and I don't feel like opening the hood right nowe
to get the model. it's about 8 months old. not a real speed demon
by any stretch. I was working with 3 bitplane DCTV files at 736X240.
331 frames fit on the 20 meg partition. I maxed at 14 FPS on my A2000
with 28Mhz 030. an a3000 should add a few FPS to that. A fast drive
could easily double that to 30FPS.

The program is very easy to use, supports Arexx, and has a bunch
more features than I've mentioned here. the manual is straight forward
and easy to use. highly recommended. asimware is at 416-578-4916


##

Subject: Centering the screen output
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 93 00:21:37 -0800
From: Joe C Solinsky <[e-mail]>

Hello.
    I admit to being a low-end user.  I won't hide that.  But, my Amiga
is well-equipped.  I mean low-end in the recording sense.  I usually make the
animation in Ram: then drop it onto tape via the A520.  It is ugly and bleeding,
but it is also $35., so I guess the cheapness is fine enough for me.
    My problem is that when I drop it to tape, it gets shifted either down
or to the right, and sometimes both.  The animation is rendered in the Ham
Overscan mode of Imagine.  Come to think of it, when I use DPaint, the same shift
occurs.  What is this shift, and why, an can it be fixed?  I have learned to
adapt my artwork to coordinate to this shift, but it would be really nice to
not have to deal with it.  In high school, we had a genlock (I forgot the name,
but it was something like Scanlock), and there was a neat little adjustment in
the side that positioned the image, but you needed a really thin screwdriver
to do this.  Is there someting wrong with the hardware design of the A2000?
    I have opened up my Amiga more times than I have had doctor's
appointments in college, so I am not scared of messing with stuff.  Any
suggestions?  I don't want comments on my setup-- IT WILL CHANGE.  After the
summer, I should be richer.  Also, what is a "Rio" and a "Topas"?  They are
listed as the subtitle to the equipment used for some art featured in a brochure
from a college (Ringling School of Art&Design).  I like the college, and I have
applied there.
    If anyone has heard of network access on the following art colleges,
let me know (It may be a tie-breaker for me):
Pratt Institute
Ringling School of Art & Design
Columbus College of Art & Design
Maryland Institute of Art
Rhode Island School of Design
University of Illinois at Chicago


thanks.
Joe Solinsky


##

Subject: Computer Reels?
Date:     Sat, 27 Mar 1993 12:12:33 -0500
From: Jason B Koszarsky <[e-mail]>

I was reading over an application for an entertainment company and under their
section detailing submissable materials they said no video tapes(except computer
reels).  Are computer reels just anims/graphics dumped to tape or something
else?

Jason K.


##

Subject: Re: Global Reflection
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1993 16:04:27 -0500
From: Brent Burkholder <[e-mail]>

   In reference to the imagine problem with global maps... the difference
being that all of those objects are reflecting on their outer edge which
bounces a ray back towards the sky (global map) whereas your sphere bounces
rays back to the ground and other objects and it'll never hit the sky.

  To sum it up, outer sufaces can see globals, not inner surfaces. (just a
guess)

Brent Burkholder
[e-mail]


##

Subject: Essence Spots
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 93 18:08:15 -0500
From: [e-mail] (PJ Foley)

Hey, just a quickie tip:

Use Essesce's "Spots" texture with a small dot size (0.2 or so) for some
great stars to place on a plane for a skyline.  They probably cause
slower rendering, but you don't have the nasty side effects that the
normal stars do (i.e. do not reflect or show through transparent
objects).
Make the plane "bright" so shadows or shading do not occur onto the
stars, as that would look kookie.
You could also apply turbulant transition bands to the "skyplane"
to give a variation of hues to the sky.

Watch for a cool pic coming soon from me!

Pj


1001001SOS1001001SOS1001001SOS1001001SOS1001001SOS1001001SOS1001001SOS1001001SOS
 "pigs we get what pigs deserve"- NIN | [e-mail]| This message
 "Are you talkin' to me?              | New year's resolution:    | inspected by
  Did you rub my lamp?" - Genie       | Same as last year's.      | No. 38



##

Subject: Re: Essence Spots
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 93 16:19:02 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Steve Worley)

PJ Foley writes:

> Use Essence's "Spots" texture with a small dot size (0.2 or so) for
> some great stars to place on a plane for a skyline.  They probably
> cause slower rendering, but you don't have the nasty side effects that
> the normal stars do (i.e. do not reflect or show through transparent
> objects).


Yup, this is a cute trick. Even better, you can add the spots to a
sphere that surrounds the whole world! Then you can point the camera
in any direction and see the stars. Imagine's starfields have a big
problem with tracking realistically during camera pans, and this
solves that problem.

The biggest problem with using this trick is aliasing: very very small
spots might get hit with a camera ray in one frame, but not the next.
So the stars may "twinkle" as the camera moves. This may be a cool
effect, but there's no easy way to STOP that twinkling: making very
small texture feautures means Imagine will start aliasing them no
matter what. :-(

-----


Essence Volume II proceeds apace, and is now in beta-test. The
textures are pretty much done, but it will take at least another month
for documentation and package design, etc.  All the testers who have
been using the new textures agree that this second set is much
"cooler" than the first, with more unique, complex surfaces. I have to
admit that they ARE more fun to play with.  Space renders with planets
and asteroids and spaceships will be transformed with just a few of
the new toys....  also there are a set of "organic" textures which
look like everything from snake skin to fungus to diseased skin
pustules.

And yes, yes, there is definately a hull-plate texture. Several types
in fact. Far and away, this was the #1 request...

Anyway, sorry for teasing you all but I know most of you are
interested.  Of couse, when the textures are "officially announced"
I'll write more detailed descriptions up and post some JPEGS.

-Steve

[e-mail]


##

Subject: Anim Frustration Increases
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 93 19:21:12 CST
From: Evan Kirchhoff <[e-mail]>

Thanks to people who answered before, but I STILL can't get Imagine to
make ANIM animations from ILBM-12 frames.  Has ANYBODY EVER been able
to do this?  What's the trick?
AAP_AAC didn't even work; it created a nice long file (1.3 megs) that
WOULDN'T PLAY (the screen just flashed when I tried to play it
from Viewtek1.04 or "AAP", though it should have been a standard
ANIM-5 file).
I figured my project was "bad" somehow, so today I rendered 5 frames
of a new test animation (a moving red ball) in ILBM-12.  Imagine STILL
made a short, unplayable ANIM (that "Display" showed to be one frame,
exactly like pic.0001), even when I picked "delete individual frames".

I'm assuming that the ILBM-12 frames created by Imagine are somehow
defective, and I'm going to try other options (ILBM-24 --> ANIM,
RGBN --> ANIM, etc.)  Am I really the only one who's ever experienced
this problem?  (I _did_ pick all the frames before hitting "Make" :)

--
 Evan K.


##

Subject: Anim Problem Isolated
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 93 3:35:01 CST
From: Evan Kirchhoff <[e-mail]>

OK, the big anim files made with AAC from the ILBM-12 frames _do_ work
(it seems that to play an animation, you have to free enough chip ram
-- ie. don't run NComm in the background :), so at least I have a
workaround now.
My problem must be with Imagine's ILBM-->ANIM utility (RGBN-->ANIM
didn't work either -- same small file).  Apparently, other people have
gotten this to work, however.
Does that requester that says "Warning: only 1 display screens to work
with" (at the beginning of the animation-making process) mean anything?

--
 Evan K.


##

Subject: Quadruple mailings and More Tunnels
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 93 4:29:23 PST
From: Daryl T. Bartley <[e-mail]>

Is it just me, or is everyone getting like 4 copies of every message from the
list? At the least, I get 2 copies. They all seem to be of different lengths.

Anyway, an actual question...

Still playing with tunnels, and I am trying to get the effect of there being
texture 'bands' on it, like in most CG tunnels you see. (i.e. you fly through
one section, then into another with a different texture) I've been able to get
passable results by using brushes/etc. placed so that they only cover certain
portions of the tunnel. Is there any way to get more than 4? Like fracturing
the tunnel into lots of different parts and just making sure that they all
line up?


Oh, also I think have that Spheres thing figured out (Thanks for the info)...
it was just plain running out of ram. I replaced the spheres with cubes (looks
even funkier), and it renders fine. (BTW, I did have Global size @ 0.0) My best
guess is that it didn't have enough ram to do all the phong'd polys. I might
try doing it again, with 'regular' spheres having the same # of apparent faces
as the CSG spheres did. Maybe this is something in the Octree? It always sucked
ram fairly heavily during initialization, and took a looooooooong time.

On a related note, does anyone have an algorithm to give the ratio of ram=polys?
I mean just plain polygons, discounting brushmaps, attributes, etc.

Anyhow, looks like the wee hours are getting to me and I'm rambling again, so
I'll hang it up now.

Thanks in advance,

Daryl T. Bartley
[e-mail]

P.S. ISL rules! Saved my sanity when I had to replace all the spheres.


##

Subject: Re: Anim Problem Isolated
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 93 13:27:45 EST
From: [e-mail]

Evan:

>Does that requester that says "Warning: only 1 display screens to work
>with" (at the beginning of the animation-making process) mean anything?

The "can only open 1 display screens" error is another CHIP RAM problem.
When attempting to build your anim, Imagine can only get enough CHIP to open
one work-screen for frame display. It will still build the anim, but it will
take a LOT longer - Imagine *LIKES* to have three screens to work with...

                                -Frank


##

Subject: Anim-7 anims
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 93 11:56:07 +0200
From: [e-mail] (Tomasz Plonka V rok)

Hi,
Anim-7 is great, but it failed on my first anim. I recompiled DPaintIV
hi-res, interlaced and overscanned, 85 frames long anim into the new
format and it stopped for a while after the first frame - it seemed as
if the the frames was in such an order: 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, ...
The same situation repeated on the last few frames.
I will examine this and let you know.


Tomasz Plonka


##

Subject: Blatent Commercialism Sought
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 93 16:25:43 EST
From: [e-mail] (Dave Townsend)

Is there a FAQ anywhere with a synopsis of products (commercial or otherwise)
usable with Imagine?  (e.g. Essence)

--DaveT;
[e-mail]


##

Subject:      X-specs and imagine
Date:         30 Mar 93 10:55:09 CST6CDT
From: "Mike Jiang"  <[e-mail]>

Hi,
    After reading a post that said Imagine was not able to
make objects appear as if their in front of the screen, I felt really
stupid for spending $60 on a pair of X-specs.  So I decided to look
in the manual.  (What a refreshing idea)  And sure enough, it told me
how to do it.  All you have to do is adjust the Y camera size, and it
worked great.

    So the moral of the story is....

    If everything else fails, look in the MANUAL.  8-)


Mike Jiang


----------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum."    | email==> [e-mail]  |
| "I think that I think,              | or    [e-mail]  |
|  therefore I think that I am."      |                              |
----------------------------------------------------------------------


##

Subject: Re: Centering the screen output
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 93 21:08:13 PST
From: [e-mail]

>I usually make the animation in Ram: then drop it onto tape via the A520.
>It is ugly and bleeding, but it is also $35., so I guess the cheapness is
>fine enough for me.
>        My problem is that when I drop it to tape, it gets shifted either down
>or to the right, and sometimes both.
>Joe Solinsky

I'm sorry this doesn't solve your A520 problem directly but I've been meaning t
o
post this message for a week and decided your thread was a good place for it.

If you don't have a DCTV, GET ONE!

I was never quite sure DCTV was what I wanted, never sure it would play ANIMs
at an acceptable speed, never sure it really looked that good!

When the price dropped to $299 I finally bought one (Computability: $294
total cost delivered COD) and I am amazed! These things are the closest thing
to magic I have ever seen!

A 732x240 3 bit-plane image is just stunning and at those sizes ANIM play back
speed is easily 30fps on an A3000.  My first ANIM is of the BADGIRL object
walking down a sidewalk beside a red brick wall with street lights passing
over her.... I guarantee that every pixel changes from frame to frame! I'm
playing it back as a ANIM7 with ViewTek and I can see a minute speed increase
between playing it back at 30fps and "as fast as ViewTek can play it" so it
is playing back at 30fps with room to spare.

I just made the jump from an A520 to a DCTV and I'd never go back!  The images
are beautiful and they don't shift when you put them on tape!  DCTV has breathe
d
new life into my animations, now I really could care-less about ever getting AG
A!

Don DeCosta
[e-mail]


##

Subject: Screenresolution of IMAGINE
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 93 21:23:41 +0100
From: [e-mail] (Heberle H.)

Hi Imagineer`s,
I am working on a workbench screen with a resolution of 712 x 512 Hires-interlace.
If I am starting and working with Imagine, the resolution of Imagine`s
screen is only 640 x 512, I think.
Is there someone who know or can tell me, how I can change the
screenresolution of Imagine to the size of my Workbench?
In the configuration (Preferences) of Imagine I didn`t find a solution
to this problem (is it a problem?).
Thanks for your answereing.
I will E-Mail you.
Horst Heberle
[e-mail]


##

Subject: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 93 21:41:26 +0100
From: [e-mail] (Heberle H.)

Hi you,
I want to use realistic looking 3D-trees in my PICS.
Is there a possibility to get some of these objects to use in Imagine?
I know there exists o program named "AMAP". It`s a product of TDI
(Thomson Digital Images) they are from Paris. I am working with this
product an use the objects from Imagine in it and reverse. Also I can
use the images from  TDI into IFF and reverse. The only one thing is, I
dont`t have this program AMAP because I am working on IBM RS/6000 with
this product and the program AMAP isn`t available (at this time) for this hardware.
I am very interested to get more information from other USERS to solve this problem.
Thanks for answering.
Horst Heberle
[e-mail]


##

Subject: Up/Downloading Files...
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1993 01:24:32 +0100 (BST)
From: Alex <[e-mail]>

Hi there guys,

OK, heres the problem. How the hell do I get files from my UNIX account at
Uni. to my Amiga back here at home during the holidays.

My setup is as follows:
    Amiga 2000 and 9600 modem.
    term 3.1 '030 (German Docs *:o( )
    An account on a UNIX system at my Uni, which I log into from term.

I know this is an Imagine list and I'm really sorry guys, but I really need
some help on this one ASAP as I've got a load of projects etc. I need to
finish.

Also if anyone has the (full, including county codes) of any public BBS's
where I could get the english 'Term' docs I'rd really be greatful

Thanks a million in advance, sorry for any inconvience,
                                                        Alex...

------------------------- #include <.signiture.h> --------------------------
****************************************************************************
Alex Craig.                             ///     CSE Student, Warwick Uni. GB
"MayTheSkyNeverFallOnYourHead!"     \\\///         [e-mail]
             -Cheif Vitelsatistix    \XX/ AMIGA    [e-mail]
****************************************************************************


##

Subject: Re- Understanding Imagine
Date: 30 Mar 1993 14:43:05 U
From: "Shalini Govil" <[e-mail]>

                       Subject:                               Time:3:57 PM
  OFFICE MEMO          Re: Understanding Imagine              Date:3/30/93
Hi..
I was looking for Understanding Imagine 2.0 but all the dealers seem
to be out of stock... Does anyone know where I can get hold of it?
Thanks
Shalini


##

Subject: Re: Global Reflection
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 93 21:06:16 PST
From: [e-mail]

>within the dome. However a global map in imagine is seen everywhere...
>inside a solid cube, under a dome.... other objects in the city still reflect
>the global map, but not the dome. I appreciate everyone's efforts in

Are you sure a global map appears inside a cube?  I'm thinking perhaps imagine
uses the axis to determine inside and outside of a object, try moving your
dome's axis outside the dome so that the inside becomes "the other side" of
the axis??

               |        |
               |       -+
               |
   *******     |     *******
  *   |   *    |    *       *
 *   -+    *   |   *         *
*           *  |  *           *
Axis inside    |  Axis outside a
a concave dome |  convex dome

Don DeCosta
[e-mail]


##

Subject: Bad edge number
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1993 23:06:59 +0200
From: H}kan Lennest}l <[e-mail]>

Hi !

Here is a beginners question:
I'm getting "object error: Bad edge number" all the time when I start
rendering (just after the initialization). What am I doing wrong ?
I am running on an A500 with 6Mb (1Mb chip) of ram.

Thanks.

/H}kan


##

Subject: Re: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 93 15:54:42 PST
From: [e-mail]

>Hi you,
>I want to use realistic looking 3D-trees in my PICS.
>Is there a possibility to get some of these objects to use in Imagine?

[...]
>Thanks for answering.
>Horst Heberle
>[e-mail]

There's a program on Fred Fish Disk #586 called Tree 4D by Bruce
Thomson, version 1.5. This program will generate trees with
good control over size, trunk, branches, leaves, and color, and save
them in Sculpt ".scene" file format.

You could then use a utility such as Pixel 3D from Axiom Software
(commercial - see your dealer) to load them in, modify them further
if desired, and then save them back out in Imagine or many other formats.

Harv
[e-mail]
Home of the Amiga Zone - 2.5 Gigabytes - email for more info.


##

Subject: Re: viewtech104 (fwd)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 93 16:18:23 CST
From: [e-mail] (Dale R Rogers)

|
|>Hello Thomas (Thomas E. Smith). On Mar 18, you have written :
|>
|>>
|>>I ftp'd the viewteh104.lha file from wuarchives.wustl.edu. When I tried to use

What is the Internet address to wuarchives.wustl.edu?

|>>makeanim7 to convert an anim5 animation I have, it said:
|>>
|>>   Cannot open Iffparse.library V37+
|>>
|>>Does anyone know where I can get this library?
|>
|>    You must get the Workbench 2.0, if you are still WB 1.3. Iffparse is
|>    a 2.0+ only library.
|>
|>    Sincerely,
|>                                   -- Philippe
|
|I have workbench 2.03. I accidently looked in my LIB: directory for my C
|compiler for the Iffparse.library. So I do have the library in my LIBS:
|directory, but I'm still getting the same message:
|   Cannot open Iffparse.library V37+
|
|Is it possible that I have the wrong version since I'm using 2.03 instead
|of workbench 2.04?
|
|Another question: Is there any software that takes a bunch of IFF images
|and builds an anim7 animation?
|
|------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|| Living on Earth may be expensive,|Tom E. Smith               | ._________  |
|| but it includes an annual free   |[e-mail]| |= (0_, \ \ |
|| trip around the Sun.             |                           | |= |0 ` / | |
||--------------------------------------------------------------| |---u----/  |
|| And no, I don't speak for my company or any other company.   |             |
|------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|


##

Subject: Re: AsimVTR!!!
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 93 19:55:51 EST
From: Steve J. Lombardi <[e-mail]>

   MY REVIEW OF ASIMVTR DELETED...

>
> What Is AsimVTR ?????  Sorry/////

Sorry if I wasn't clear. AsimVTR is a software only amiga program
used to play back a sequence of IFF images directly from a harddrive.
It can do this at a real nice frame rate depending on the speed
of your harddrive. It is very easy to use and well documented. It
currently only supports resolutions up to 736 X 290. I hope this
clears things up.


##

Subject: Re: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE
Date: 31 Mar 1993 08:46:49 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail] (Marvin Landis)

> I want to use realistic looking 3D-trees in my PICS.
> Is there a possibility to get some of these objects to use in Imagine?
> I know there exists o program named "AMAP". It`s a product of TDI
> (Thomson Digital Images) they are from Paris. I am working with this
> product an use the objects from Imagine in it and reverse. Also I can
> use the images from  TDI into IFF and reverse. The only one thing is, I
> dont`t have this program AMAP because I am working on IBM RS/6000 with
> this product and the program AMAP isn`t available (at this time) for this
> hardware.  I am very interested to get more information from other USERS to
> solve this problem.
> Thanks for answering.
> Horst Heberle

Well, this is not necessarily an Amiga solution and the code does not
generate Imagine format directly, but here is an interesting package some
of you may be interested in experimenting with.  If you have seen the book
"The Algorithmic Beauty of Plants" by Prusinkiewicz and Lindenmayer, they
talk about an L-system (very similar to turtle graphics type commands) that
can be used to algorithmically describe plants and trees.  Well Christopher
Strait has released an L-system interpreter called graphtal.  It can be used
to generate many of the examples found in the book listed above.  Its output
object format is rayshade, but it does output strictly triangles, so
converting to imagine format shouldn't be hard.  In fact, I believe Vertex will
mow load rayshade triangular objects, and allow them to be saved in imagine
format  (I am a registered user of Vertex, but I'm afraid I use it to convert
Imagine objects to rayshade format, not the other way around).

Graphtal comes with quite a few examples from the book, and the birch tree
example in particular is very nice!  I have starting using it to model many
varieties of cactus that can be found here in Arizona.  I'll include the
ftp site announcement about graphtal below.  I hope someone can use this info.

Marvin Landis
[e-mail]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The first public release of graphtal is now available via anonymous
ftp at iamsun.unibe.ch (130.92.64.10) and is found as
/Graphics/graphtal-1.0.tar.Z or
/Graphics/graphtal_no_bison_no_flex-1.0.tar.Z.

graphtal is an L-system interpreter.
The following features are included:

o  D0L-systems,
o  tables of productions,
o  productions with parameters,
o  stochastically applied productions,
o  global and local constants,
o  hull definitions (turtle interpretation with regard to
   these hulls),
o  production parameters may be strings or real values,
o  animations support,
o  turtle interpreter with macros,
o  preview for X11,
o  zBuffer preview and output for rayshade.

What you will need:

- C++ compiler (g++ doesn't work)
- bison and flex (if not available, get graphtal_no_bison_no_flex.tar.Z)
- rayshade 4.0.6 and the URT toolkit (not necessary)

How do you compile graphtal:

- Get the source.
- zcat graphtal.tar.Z | tar xvf -
- cd graphtal
- Edit the Makefile to set the compiler you have.
- make depend
- make
- execute an example:
    graphtal -d x11wire Examples/birchtree.lsys

Supported platforms:

- Sun SparcStations with Sun C++ 2.1, Sun C++ 3.0, AT&T 2.0 and AT&T 3.0
- IBM RS/6000 with AT&T C++ 2.0
- DEC Station with DEC C++ 1.0

Examples:

In the directory graphtal/Examples some interesting L-systems are
included. The animation scripts will need nawk or gawk in order
to work.


Please send bugs (accompanied by L-systems causing them),
interesting L-systems for inclusion in the release, enhancements,
and suggestions to the author via email.

Christoph Streit ([e-mail])


##

Subject: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 11:13:06 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Rich Nollman)

Marvin,

What is Vertex?  I remember hearing about it.  Is it a conversion tool
like Interchange?  The reason I am interested is that I just read Harv
Laser's posting about a program called 4D Trees.  The only problem is
that it's output is in Sculpt 3D .scene format and I would need Pixel
3D to convert it to iff format?  Do you happen to know if it can
convert from .scene to iff format?  Also, how much is Vertex and do
you have the telephone number for Vertex so that I can call them and
get some information on the product?

Thanks.

Rich Nollman


##

Subject: Re: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE
Date: 31 Mar 1993 09:37:42 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail] (Marvin Landis)


> What is Vertex?  I remember hearing about it.  Is it a conversion tool
> like Interchange?  The reason I am interested is that I just read Harv
> Laser's posting about a program called 4D Trees.  The only problem is
> that it's output is in Sculpt 3D .scene format and I would need Pixel
> 3D to convert it to iff format?  Do you happen to know if it can
> convert from .scene to iff format?  Also, how much is Vertex and do
> you have the telephone number for Vertex so that I can call them and
> get some information on the product?

Vertex is a shareware ($40) 3D modeller by Alex Deburie. It has some interesting
modelling capabilities (although many times I find it to be pretty slow on my
68020 Amiga) as well as AREXX support, and it does allow loading and saving of
a variety of 3D formats.  Yes, it will load Sculpt 3D objects and allow you to
save them in Imagine format.  I don't have the docs handy, so I can't remember
all the formats it supports (I believe Alex reads this group, maybe he can post
some more info).

There used to be a demo available on hubcap called Vertex.lzh, with everything
but the save feature enabled, but since hubcap doesn't exist anymore, I'm not
sure where you could find it now.  Here is the address (taken from the list
of contributors to last years IML contest).

The Art Machine
4189 Nickolas
Sterling Heights, MI 48310
[phone]

Hope this helps.

Marvin Landis
[e-mail]


##

Subject: Imagine HW reqs,
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1993 11:02:22 -0600
From: [e-mail] (John Richards Rowland)

What are the hardware requirements for Imagine?  I want to run
it on stock A1200HD (2Mb chip ram).  How is the new (2.0) version
better than the old?


--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
John Rowland
[e-mail]  (UT CS Department)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


##

Subject: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 12:00:06 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Rich Nollman)

Marvin,

Thanks.  Sounds like I can avoid buying Pixel 3D.  I just need to get 4D Tree
and Vertex and load the 4D Tree objects into Vertex and save to Imagine format.
Is that right?

Also, do you happen to know if there is a program that created 3D figures like
4D Tree?  There is a program on the PC called Mannequin that creates different
types of figures (man, woman, types of races, children) and allows the user
to create animation sequences that can be imported by a program like 3D Studio.
Have you ever come across anything like this on the Amiga platform?

Rich


##

Subject: Re: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE
Date: 31 Mar 1993 10:58:51 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail] (Marvin Landis)


> Thanks.  Sounds like I can avoid buying Pixel 3D.  I just need to get 4D Tree
> and Vertex and load the 4D Tree objects into Vertex and save to Imagine
> format.  Is that right?

Yep, that's right.

> Also, do you happen to know if there is a program that created 3D figures like
> 4D Tree?  There is a program on the PC called Mannequin that creates different
> types of figures (man, woman, types of races, children) and allows the user
> to create animation sequences that can be imported by a program like 3D
> Studio.  Have you ever come across anything like this on the Amiga platform?

Nope, I haven't seen anything like this for the Amiga.  I have seen the
Mannequin advertisement, and since I used to be very interested in 3D character
animation, I always wondered how well such a program performed.  But I've
never seen it in action, or seen any 3D rendered results from it.  I would
be interested in hearing from anyone who has worked with it or any similar
package on any other platform (DOS, Mac, Unix, etc).

Marvin Landis
[e-mail]


##

Subject: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 11:06:11 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Rich Nollman)

Harv,

Tree 4D sounds interesting.  I have not been happy with Scenery
animator for creating realistic forest settings.  Everything is too
sparse.  My only problem with using any public domain software is that
every program I have tried seems either not to work or is pathetic
(the latest has been the fractals programs -- it was embarrassing -- I
was used to Fractint on the PC -- better in many ways than some
commerical programs on the Amiga platform).  Is this program any
better?  (I seem to always set myself up for disappointment when I get
Fred Fish programs).

Second question:  Is there any other way to convert from .scene to iff format
other than Pixel 3D (is Pixel 3D expensive?)?  Will any version of Pixel 3D
make the conversion (I am thinking about getting an earlier used version
from someone on the net).

Third question: While I am at it (while I have your attention), do you
know of any PD or commerical programs that do modeling of human
figures?  There is a program on the PC platform called Mannequin that
has various figures (man, woman, children, various races, etc.)
already created that can be animated via keyframes and imported to a
program like 3D Studio.  My thinking is that if Tree 4D exists there might
be one for human figures.

Thanks.

Rich Nollman


##

Subject: Re: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE and a program that called Mannequin
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 21:00:18 +0100
From: [e-mail] (Heberle H.)

Hi Rich,
is this program "Mannequin" Public Domain or is it a commercial product?
If it generates 3D-objects and can export DXF files, I have the
possibility to convert this objects into Imagine binary format.
Horst Heberle
[e-mail]


##

Subject: Viewtek104.lha
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 9:02:30 PST
From: [e-mail] (Thorne Kontos)

Can anyone tell me where I can find viewtek104.lha? Please be
specific as to the internet location as well as the full
directory path. I looked in wuarchive.wustl.edu but only found
viewtek102a.lha. I assume I was looking in the wrong directory,
so if someone out there can lend some help, it will be greatly
appreciated.

                                            Thanks,
                                            Thorne K. Kontos


##

Subject: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE and a program that called Mannequin
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 14:58:05 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Rich Nollman)

>Hi Rich,
>is this program "Mannequin" Public Domain or is it a commercial product?
>If it generates 3D-objects and can export DXF files, I have the
>possibility to convert this objects into Imagine binary format.
>Horst Heberle
>[e-mail]

It does export DXF files.  It would be great if they could be imported to
Imagine (both on PC and Amiga platform).  It is a commercial product (retails
for about $500 but I can get if for about $250 from a local dealer).  I might
be able to get some files from my local dealer for you to work with you.  He
might be interested as a possible way to increase sales to Amigamites.

Rich


##

Subject: Re: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 21:17:13 +0100
From: [e-mail] (Heberle H.)

Hi Harv,
some time ago I tryed to use the program from Fred Fish Disk #586
called Tree 4D. But the results of it are not to my satisfaction. It is
also no problem for me to convert the objects into Imagine file-format.
But the objects of this very good program are not realistically enough
to render High End photorealistic images in architecture. So, I have to
need more information about other products to solve my problem.
Thanks for your comments.
Horst Heberle
[e-mail]


##

Subject: ViewTek 1.04  & A4000 problems
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 14:46:06 -0500
From: Ralph Seguin <[e-mail]>

I think I may be alone in this, but Viewtek 1.04 is _NOT_ working for
me.  It'll load an anim and display the first frame and then lock up
my machine.  The older version works fine (but, of course, doesn't
play anim7 format either ;).  In any case, here's my config:

WB3.0
A4000/040, 2M CHIP, 16M FAST, A2091, Fujitsu 2624SA 520M, A2065
ethernet, 1080 monitor.

            Thanks, Ralph


##

Subject: Re: Screenresolution of IMAGINE
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 21:07:49 +0100
From: [e-mail] (Heberle H.)

>Just type in the correct resolution instead of using the presets,,, you can
>get it to render any size you wish.

Hi Brent,
that isn`t the solution that I need. I do not mean to change the
resolution of my rendered pictures. I need to change the resolution of
Imagine`s editor-screens (Detail-, Forms-, Stage-, Action- and
Projecteditor) until I get the resolution of my Workbench-Screen
(712x512 visible Size).
I think I could explain it right. Please excuse my mistakes.
Horst Heberle
[e-mail]


##

Subject: Re: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 20:47:58 +0100
From: [e-mail] (Heberle H.)

>Harv,

>Tree 4D sounds interesting.  I have not been happy with Scenery
>animator for creating realistic forest settings.  Everything is too
>sparse.  My only problem with using any public domain software is that
>every program I have tried seems either not to work or is pathetic
>(the latest has been the fractals programs -- it was embarrassing -- I
>was used to Fractint on the PC -- better in many ways than some
>commerical programs on the Amiga platform).  Is this program any
>better?  (I seem to always set myself up for disappointment when I get
>Fred Fish programs).

>Second question:  Is there any other way to convert from .scene to iff format
>other than Pixel 3D (is Pixel 3D expensive?)?  Will any version of Pixel 3D
>make the conversion (I am thinking about getting an earlier used version
>from someone on the net).

>Third question: While I am at it (while I have your attention), do you
>know of any PD or commerical programs that do modeling of human
>figures?  There is a program on the PC platform called Mannequin that
>has various figures (man, woman, children, various races, etc.)
>already created that can be animated via keyframes and imported to a
>program like 3D Studio.  My thinking is that if Tree 4D exists there might
>be one for human figures.

>Thanks.

>Rich Nollman

Hi Rich,

you should use Interchange to convert from Sculpt .scene format to
TurboSilver or Imagine Format. I tryed this and it works to my
satisfaction. The only one thing to do is, you have to own Turbosilver,
because you have to load the objects into TS and then save them, I
believe ( I dont`t know if there is an Imagine-converter included
today). After saving into TS (TDDD) - format you have access to this
objects with Imagine. If you don`t have access to these objects, try to
use the programs of Glen Lewis (I think it`s his name (please excuse
Glen if it isn`t)) T3Dlib to convert these objects into TDDD format and
back to Imagine binary-format.
I think this is the right way to do it (direct out of my mind); if it
isn`t send me a mail and I will check the right way to get these conversions.
Horst Heberle
[e-mail]


##

Subject: Re: Up/Downloading Files...
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1993 23:44:26 -0600 (CST)
From: "William J Toninato-1" <[e-mail]>

I use a program called AmigaNOS to ftp.  This could work for you I would
suspect.

Bill Toninato


##

Subject: DCTV & A520
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 10:57:19 +0200
From: [e-mail] (Tomasz Plonka V rok)

Errors-to: /dev/null

Hi,
Don DeCosta writes:

> If you don't have a DCTV, GET ONE !

I sorry to say, but I am disappointed with a DCTV. The image quality
is so poor that it is hard to compare it even with a A520.
The DCTV unit works great, however, when displaing full-color images.
To check it, try displaing 40 points height text via DCTV. It is just
imposible. On the other side, *** digitized *** images are quite good,
although they are shifted to the right significantly ( I used BetacamSP
player and 50 cm long cable ).

> (...) now I really care-less about ever getting AGA !

I tried AGA machine - A1200 to be precise. I used  the demo version
of DPaintIVAGA and I was so impressed that I just can't express it.
The A1200 was so fast and the image quality was so good compared to
A520 that I realized it is a revolution :-) !
IMO a SuperHiRes, 16 color screen was faster then 4 color, HiRes screen
on an ECS A500+.


Tomasz Plonka


##

Subject: Re: AsimVTR!!!
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 93 0:25:11 EST
From: Steve J. Lombardi <[e-mail]>

> > of your harddrive. It is very easy to use and well documented. It
> > currently only supports resolutions up to 736 X 290. I hope this
> > clears things up.
> Why only x 290 ?? Would like to go to 566 (PAL DCTV).
> Is this not possible in the current version?
>
> Roger
>

AsimVtr does not yet support interlaced resolutions. you would have to
convert your 566 images to 283. I think the manual may mention
that this could change as the program is updated. I would have
to check. I would think that as more folks acquire 4000's and
the ability to move more data into chip ram faster that the interlace
restriction could be removed. 736X480 DCTV at a constant 30FPS
would service me nicely!!

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
                    | why would he be such a jerk? i know that he doesn't smoke
steve lombardi      | drugs. and he doesn't do cocaine. and he doesn't shoot
[e-mail] | smack. and he doesn't even drink beer. Why would he be
                    | such a fu*ker to me? --WEEN


##

Subject: Re: Vertex (was: 3D-trees...)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 93 01:21:48 EST
From: [e-mail] (Alex Deburie)

> What is Vertex?  I remember hearing about it.  Is it a conversion tool
> like Interchange?  The reason I am interested is that I just read Harv
> Laser's posting about a program called 4D Trees.  The only problem is
> that it's output is in Sculpt 3D .scene format and I would need Pixel
> 3D to convert it to iff format?  Do you happen to know if it can
> convert from .scene to iff format?  Also, how much is Vertex and do
> you have the telephone number for Vertex so that I can call them and
> get some information on the product?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Rich Nollman

For Rich, or anyone else who may be interested in Vertex:

Vertex is a generic 3D object editor/converter. What I've tried to do
is support as many file formats as possible, and offer a wide variety
of tools, all built on top of an easy to use interface.

Just to give you some idea of what features it has, here's a quick
rundown:

   Bevels
   Multiply (send a math function through an object)
   Apply Curve
   Be Sphere
   Wrap to Ring
   Taper/Twist
   Randomize
   Gravity
   Fractal (2d and 3d midpoint subdivision type)
   Cut-Window
   Align
   Thrust (push)
   Simple "solid models"
   Complete Arexx Port

Vertex supports Imagine/Turbo Silver, Lightwave, Sculpt 3D, GEO,
3D Professional, Wavefront, and Rayshade file formats.

If you're interested, you can find a (non-saving) demo in the
Fred Fish library (disk #727), or on most good 3D BBS's. Full
ordering info is included with the demo (BTW: Vertex is shareware
(for now) and costs $40 US).

Or, if you prefer, you can contact me at:

   Alex Deburie
   The Art Machine
   4189 Nickolas
   Sterling Heights, MI
   [phone]

   --Alex Deburie
     [e-mail]

PS: The Tree4D program someone was talking about is rather lame.
 From what I've seen, the "trees" it produces look more like sickly
rubber plants. I must admit, I didn't give it much of a go, you may
have more luck with it. I've been meaning to mess around with my own
tree generator, maybe I will if there's any interest in it.


##

Subject: Director Mailing List
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 93 11:34:52 CST
From: [e-mail] (Dale R Rogers)

                          ANNOUNCING THE
                     DIRECTOR 2.0 MAILING LIST


    Imagineers,

    A while back I mentioned something about a Director 2.0 mailing
    list being in the works.  Well... it's finally here.  Yury German,
    black-knight, has set up the mailing list through his sight.  (He
    seems to be a busy guy lately).

    The Director 2.0 is a script based mulitmedia authoring
    program written by the Right Answers Group.  It can be used
    to control every aspect of your animations.  With it you
    can control the rate (speed) of playback.  You can load your
    anims, independently, to their own specific memory buffers,
    and then chain them together for playback.  You can load
    an animation into memory while another one is playing.  You
    can link sound files to your animations.  You can pause
    your animations on specific frames for a defined amount of
    time.  You can create custom transitions between
    your animations.


    Subscribing to the List
    ------------------------------------------------------
    To receive the Director 2.0 Mailing List, simply send your
    request to Yury at

    [e-mail]

    In your subject line...please have the word "subscribe" or
    "unsubscribe"

    In addition to having SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE in
    the subject line, put it in the letter.

    SUBSCRIBE [e-mail]
                   or
    UNSUBSCRIBE [e-mail] (where [e-mail]
    is replaced with your address)





       _____________________________^_____________________________
                                  __ __
                                ____ ____
       _____________________________ _____________________________
       dale r. rogers
       [e-mail]

                                    .


##

Subject: Re: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE
Date: 01 Apr 93 11:26:54 EST
From: John Foust / Syndesis Corporation <[e-mail]>

To: [e-mail]

[e-mail] (Rich Nollman) writes:
>Second question:  Is there any other way to convert from .scene to iff format
>other than Pixel 3D (is Pixel 3D expensive?)?  Will any version of Pixel 3D

You want to convert a Sculpt .scene to an Imagine object.
[e-mail] recommended Pixel 3D, but of course he was just
doing that to annoy me, the maker of a much better and less expensive
3D conversion package, InterChange Plus.

Harv probably got his copy for free, so he'd rather recommend Pixel.
I think if Axiom Software cared about their market, they'd be
monitoring the Imagine mailing list themselves and doing their own
plugs, like I do.

Pixel retails for $249.95, InterChange Plus at $99.95.  Our direct
sale price is less than Pixel's upgrade price.  Call [phone]
for more info about ICP.  Mention that you saw this message on the
Imagine mailing list, and you can get the full package for $69.95, no
shipping, no handling, no extra charge for credit cards (unlike
Axiom.)

We perform a much more accurate conversion - for example, we
translate Imagine sub-object hierarchies, while Pixel never has done
it right.  We handle variable size Vista DEMs, Pixel doesn't.  I'll
be posting a more detailed comparison in a few days.

Yes, Horst Heberle, ICP has an Imagine Converter as well as Turbo
Silver 2.0 and 3.0, LightWave objects and scenes, and much more.

But if you want to translate those Mannequin humanoid objects from
DXF to Imagine, you'll need a more complete DXF translator than
Pixel.  We can separate DXF entities by layer or by pen (the two ways
that Mannequin represents sub-objects.)

Pixel claims to support DXF files, but they only handle one entity
type - 3DFACE - and they don't even bother to document what else they
support.  Why?  Because DXF is a very complex format, with dozens and
dozens of entity types.  Axiom wanted to snare unsuspecting people
who, heaven forbid, assumed that if they claimed to support DXF,
they'd do a good job of it.

They do this in a lot of ways - they say they support Wavefront, but
again, they handle only two entity types where dozens exist.  No
support for sub-objects or surfaces.  They claim to support Digital
Arts, except their Wavefront and Digital Arts conversions are exactly
the same - in fact, when they save Wavefront objects, they give them
MS-DOS line endings like a Digital Arts file should have, when
Wavefront software runs on Unix machines that have the same line
endings as the Amiga.  And the box says they support outline fonts,
but the manual says they don't.

Syndesis has a good DXF translator that will take those Mannequin
objects and separate them into Imagine sub-objects.  We were also the
first company - on any platform - to handle the 3D Studio .3DS file
format.  We are registered Autodesk multimedia developers, and we
actually own and use AutoCAD and 3D Studio.  Can Axiom say the same?

Where Pixel's manual takes a sentence or two at most to describe what
they support in each format, the ICP manual takes pages and pages.
That's the kind of professional detail that Amiga animators should
expect.

Instead, you see recommendations from people who got free copies of
Pixel...  Maybe these people simply don't understand the nuances that
are important to real-world users of these products.  I thought this
mailing list was a place where users could stand up and speak
honestly about products.  If something didn't work and was
over-priced, they'd want to be the first to announce it to the net.

And you even see recommendations from people (like Dave Duberman in
the latest issue of Video Toaster User) who clearly understand the
failings of Pixel and the superiority of InterChange Plus's
translations, but don't speak the truth.

Hmm, it couldn't have anything to do with Axiom's two-page color
advertising in VTU...  Could it be Satan?  :-)


##

Subject:  Re: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 93 23:00:20 EST
From: [e-mail] (Bill Carey)

To: netcomsv.netcom.com!amber.rc.arizona.edu!marvinl


>> Thanks.  Sounds like I can avoid buying Pixel 3D.  I just
> need to get 4D Tree
>> and Vertex and load the 4D Tree objects into Vertex and save
> to Imagine
>> format.  Is that right?
>
>Yep, that's right.
>
>> Also, do you happen to know if there is a program that created
> 3D figures like
>> 4D Tree?  There is a program on the PC called Mannequin that
> creates different
>> types of figures (man, woman, types of races, children) and
> allows the user
>> to create animation sequences that can be imported by a program
> like 3D
>> Studio.  Have you ever come across anything like this on the
> Amiga platform?
>
>Nope, I haven't seen anything like this for the Amiga.  I have
> seen the
>Mannequin advertisement, and since I used to be very interested
> in 3D character
>animation, I always wondered how well such a program performed.
>  But I've
>never seen it in action, or seen any 3D rendered results from
> it.  I would
>be interested in hearing from anyone who has worked with it
> or any similar
>package on any other platform (DOS, Mac, Unix, etc).
>
>Marvin Landis
>[e-mail]
There is a male figure available commercialy called RenderMan, or
MotionMan, something like that. Used to be advertised in AW all the
time. Recently DL a PD woman object, BodyGirl which is very well done.
(From Portal I think)
Bill


##

Subject:  Re: Sony VCR with "jog/shuttle"...
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 93 23:00:13 EST
From: [e-mail] (Bill Carey)

To: email.sp.paramax.com!imagine

>
>>I've got a 696 sitting right here. What 'transport' are you
>>reccomending?
>>Bill
>
>I also bought a 696 (of course it's in the repair shop already!)
>
>and now I can't find that article!  I'm sure it was in AVID
>magazine.  Maybe I was confusing it with the merlin transport
> system
>which is for SFC.
>
>Have you done much recording with your 696?  I find dark colors
> are
>all noisy and spotty with mine. I had to take it in because
> the stereo
>sound is all screwed up on it and I hope that fixes the noisy
> Video
>too.
>
>Adam B.


Yeah, we've been using it quite a bit. The quality is okay, but not
as good as the RCA Pro-Edit camcorder we also use. Dunno why, have
enough filters etc to protect it from the second coming. Flying
erase heads nice though....
Bill


##

Subject: Re: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 13:59:42 EST
From: Mark Thompson <[e-mail]>

> Tree 4D sounds interesting.  I have not been happy with Scenery
> animator for creating realistic forest settings.  Everything is too
> sparse.

There is a control in Scenery Animator for tree density and can make them
pretty thick.

> I seem to always set myself up for disappointment when I get
> Fred Fish programs.

I was dissapointed with Tree 4D but hey, its free.
If a forest is what you are after, I do not reccommend modeling the trees
anyway. You will be looking at millions and millions of polygons. I would
either use composited Scenery Animator generated imagery or trees that are
basically only a couple polygons with transparency maps (this is how its
done in actual flight simulators).
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
%      `       '        Mark Thompson                 CONCURRENT COMPUTER  %
% --==* RADIANT *==--   [e-mail]        Principal Graphics   %
%      ' Image `        ...!uunet!masscomp!mark       Hardware Architect   %
%     Productions       [phone] [phone]   & General Nuisance   %
%                                                                          %
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


##

Subject: Re: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 12:05:33 EST
From: Mark Thompson <[e-mail]>

> >I want to use realistic looking 3D-trees in my PICS.
> >I know there exists o program named "AMAP". It`s a product of TDI

> There's a program on Fred Fish Disk #586 called Tree 4D by Bruce
> Thomson, version 1.5.

Tree 4D does produce something that could be constued as a tree but it
is not even remotely close to beauty and realism of AMAP output. Note
however that several AMAP trees could push your polygon count into
the high gazillions. Also, AMAP is not a TDI product but simply bundled
with TDI software. It is also now being bundled with Softimage. I would
love to see a similar package available for the Amiga. With program control
now becoming a more popular feature in Amiga modeling packages, the time
is ripe for a third party vendor to create such a package.
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
%      `       '        Mark Thompson                 CONCURRENT COMPUTER  %
% --==* RADIANT *==--   [e-mail]        Principal Graphics   %
%      ' Image `        ...!uunet!masscomp!mark       Hardware Architect   %
%     Productions       [phone] [phone]   & General Nuisance   %
%                                                                          %
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


##

Subject: Re: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 93 07:33:29 CST
From: [e-mail] (Thomas E. Smith)

[e-mail] (Mark Thompson) writes:
>If a forest is what you are after, I do not reccommend modeling the trees
>anyway. You will be looking at millions and millions of polygons. I would
>either use composited Scenery Animator generated imagery or trees that are
>basically only a couple polygons with transparency maps (this is how its
>done in actual flight simulators).

That post got my thinkin... what if, in VistaPro or Scenery animator,
set all the colors to black exept for the trees. Then you render the scene
and all you would see are the trees. Then genlock that into an Imagine scene.
It's a hack, but it may work for some cases. I'm not at my Amiga right now
or I'd try it.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|                                                   |      Tom Smith         |
| Radioactive cats have 18 half-lives.              |         tes@           |
|                                                   | gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov|
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


##

Subject: DXF mannequin objects
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 93 10:46:24 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Rich Nollman)

John Foust (Syndesis),

Please send me your email address is (is it:
[e-mail]? -- strange address) and your phone number
at Syndesis (I am not sure if I can send mail directly to you -- most
of my non-imagine mailing list mail seems to bounce).  I saw a demo of
Mannequin and was VERY impressed.  If you are telling me that Interchange
can convert the humanoid objects from Mannequin (DXF format) to Imagine
object format, I am VERY interested.  I received mail from several others
who are interested also.  I need to talk to you about the particulars of
exactly what to expect. I will post my impressions of Mannequin for those
who might have access to PCs.

Rich Nollman


##

Subject: Re: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 93 11:17:23 EST
From: Mark Thompson <[e-mail]>

>>   basically only a couple polygons with transparency maps (this is how its
>>   done in actual flight simulators).

>     Don't tell how we do it!!!! :)
>     Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp.
>     [e-mail]

Uh, oops, uh, what I meant to say was....They use a complex proprietory
geometric model consuming several thousand lines of code and based on high level fractal mathmatics that even Ivan Sutherland does not fully understand.
:-) There, I hope this clears everything up ;-)
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
%      `       '        Mark Thompson                 CONCURRENT COMPUTER  %
% --==* RADIANT *==--   [e-mail]        Principal Graphics   %
%      ' Image `        ...!uunet!masscomp!mark       Hardware Architect   %
%     Productions       [phone] [phone]   & General Nuisance   %
%                                                                          %
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


##

Subject: Mannequin
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 93 12:30:49 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Rich Nollman)

I got a chance to take a look at an interesting program called
Mannequin on the PC platform this morning.  It could be of interest to
Imagine users.  If you have Imagine on both the PC and Amiga
platforms, you can use Mannequin to create humanoid objects and
animations (which can be saved in several 2D and 3D formats, one of
which is DXF).  Both Interchange and Pixel 3D claim to be able to
convert DXF files into Imagine objects (although there is some
controversy about whether or not Pixel 3D can handle the various
levels in the object heirarchy correctly).  If you only have Imagine
on the Amiga, you can use converted objects (or convert DXF files
generously loaded by Mannequin users using one of the above file
conversion products) loaded to an FTP site.  I don't think there is
any way you can convert the animation files created by Mannequin to
Imagine format (cycle editor) but that would be an interesting project
for someone.  I know you can save the frames of animation created in
Mannequin to 2D formats such as TIFF and GIF.  That means that you
could convert to IFF frames and using a paint program, do your own
shading, textures, and colorization and composite the frames to
another animation.  Since the main thrust of my work is in 2D illustration,
I really do not care about the animation.

Now on to the program.

The program creates wireframe and solid humanoid figures of all types
and sizes.  All the joints are movable including joints in the figures
and toes.  The head is featureless (it has a suggestion of nose and
cheeks).  It is expected that the face would be mapped to the head
when the model is brought into a rendering program like 3D Studio
(which directly supports DXF format).

The interface in very intuitive.  You start off by choosing from a
list of body types.  The information about types comes from
comprehensive database of types and ages and characteristics.  This
program might be used by office supply company to design furniture or
by a govermment agency to determine guidelines for safety and
employee comfort.  The movement of the parts of the body of each
figure has been calibrated so that it cannot move beyond what is
considered a normal point in relation to the rest of the body.  The
program, for example. will not allow you turn a figure's head so that
it points backwards.  Unfortunately, if you cannot save the entire animation
sequence, this feature does not have much value.  You can save it in 3D Studio
and apply attributes to the objects and subobjects in the animated sequence.
Unless someone comes up with a way to import the sequence into the Imagine
cycle editor, I can't see how this feature can be used with Imagine.  It is
great for my purposes, because I plan to repaint the surface of the figure
anyway using a paint program.

Here are some of the options:

    male/female/child (no gender for children)

    age (the program actually changes the structure of the body according
        to the age factor you specify)

    country (the database contains information about the "norm" for things
        like weight and height and length of limbs in relation to the
        rest of the body for people in different countries -- I assume
        this information is taken from data collected by health
        organizations.)

    starting position
        (there are 8 or 10 boxis that appear illustrating a particular
        position that your figure can start in such as standing, sitting,
        kneeling, etc.  You can also select hands, you get 8-10 more
            special positions for the hands -- like holding a rope, fist
        clenched, open hand, handshake, etc.  I think there are more
        options for different parts of the body, but I did not think to
        ask.  So you can select a sitting position for the main body,
            you can select some starting position for the hand, etc.)

There are other options I am sure, but I cannot remember them.  You
then can build an environment around the object (a desk, a computer,
lamps, cabinets, etc.) using various 3D drawing tools.  Then you
create a path for the object and press the animate button and the
various frames are created on the screen.  The other objects (desk,
etc -- whatever else you have created) do not have to be redrawn, just
the figure moving along the path.  It takes a few seconds for each
frame to generate (the wireframe figure is a very complex set of
points).  I did not see the animation run, because we forgot to leave
the record feature on.

Any part of the figure (finger, thigh, forerm, etc.) can be scaled,
rotated, etc (I cannot remember the other options) on any combination
of xyz axes and on all axes.  The "scene" can be rendered in wireframe
or shade, but the program only support 16 colors (which accounts for
it's speed).

There are more features, but I had seen enough to have made the
decision to purchase the program (I have a PC and an Amiga 3000).
John Foust from Syndesis stated in his recent mail to the list that
Interchange supports conversion of objects from DXF to Imagine format.
That means if you have
 the program you can create your own objects.  Or people (like me) can
create objects, convert them, and put them in an FTP site for others to
use.

Unfortunately, my mail does not seem to get through to the list very
reliably these days (I have no idea if this message will make it on
the list) so I have not been able to get any further communication
from John Foust directly.  What I need is his telephone number so that
I can talk to him directly to find out what Interchange can and cannot
do with respect to Mannequie output files.  If anyone has the phone
number for Syndesis, please email it to me or call me at 617 273-0480
x3929 (work) or 617 354-7959 (home).


##

Subject: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 93 08:44:35 MST
From: [e-mail] (David Ingebretsen)

   Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 13:59:42 EST
   From: Mark Thompson <[e-mail]>

   > Tree 4D sounds interesting.  I have not been happy with Scenery
   > ...

   either use composited Scenery Animator generated imagery or trees that are
   basically only a couple polygons with transparency maps (this is how its
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   done in actual flight simulators).
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    MARK!!!!

    Don't tell how we do it!!!! :)

    David

    David M. Ingebretsen
    Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp.
    [e-mail]

    Disclaimer: The content of this message in no way reflects the
                opinions of my employer, nor are my actions
            encouraged, supported, or acknowledged by my
            employer.


##

Subject: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 93 19:00:46 +0100
From: [e-mail] (Heberle H.)

Thanks for your message Mark,
I would love it too to see such a package like AMAP for the Amiga. I
can`t understand that all the very good programers out there didn`t try
to solve this problem. Bruce Thomson did start to do it with Tree 4D.
That`s a good beginning. I and I think you all out there will hope,
this is just the beginning of new programs. But the dicussion about
3D-trees is not over, I think?
Horst Heberle
[e-mail]


##

Subject: Re: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 93 15:43:49 EST
From: David Watters <[e-mail]>

> That post got my thinkin... what if, in VistaPro or Scenery animator,
> set all the colors to black exept for the trees. Then you render the scene
> and all you would see are the trees. Then genlock that into an Imagine scene.
> It's a hack, but it may work for some cases. I'm not at my Amiga right now
> or I'd try it.

> |                                                   |      Tom Smith         |

There is an easier, more versatile thing you want to do here.
They idea is sound but there are some key things that will hinder the overall
illusion.

1:  You will need to have the camera and lighting in both imagine and VP/SA
    exactly the same.  You will also need the focal length the same.

2:  Assuming you have solved the above, you can not move the camera unless you
    do it the same (frame accurate) for both.

3:  All object movement will abviously be on top of the back drop.  Now you
    could do a combination of a backdrop and foreground, but how you create
    those in VP/SA will be tricky.

Hint #2 (#1 was in the last post)

In my opinion, it is not that costly to waste a polygon (in the case of imagine
it may be two polygons - I never use it anymore with Lightwave around) for
each instance of a tree.  This is extremely easy with Lightwave... but I have
not done it within imagine. (combining brush and transparency maps)



David
Watters

--
David R. Watters ([e-mail])    Cranel Inc. Development & Engineering
"Porsche.  The very name is, to many, the last word in sports cars. Any car
 blessed with these magic seven letters is sure to be the very best. Period!"
                        - Car and Driver, January 1993


##

Subject: Re: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 93 14:46:04 EST
From: David Watters <[e-mail]>

> Mark Thompson writes:
> If a forest is what you are after, I do not reccommend modeling the trees
> anyway. You will be looking at millions and millions of polygons.

Amen!

> I would
> either use composited Scenery Animator generated imagery

A little tough when camera moves and lighting is important.

> or trees that are
> basically only a couple polygons with transparency maps (this is how its
> done in actual flight simulators).

This is what I do, and in an animation I did that had a large number of
oak and pine trees it looked <as humble as possible> spectacular for being
2D brushmaps.  This is a really nice trick, combining brush maps and
transparency maps. Even having the trees track a moving camera is not too bad.
You can even do some interesting things to project the right shadows, even with
overhead tree shots, but it should be clear that I am not in to giving away all
my favorite secrets as is Mark. :)

> %      `       '        Mark Thompson                 CONCURRENT COMPUTER  %

David
Watters

--
David R. Watters ([e-mail])    Cranel Inc. Development & Engineering
"Porsche.  The very name is, to many, the last word in sports cars. Any car
 blessed with these magic seven letters is sure to be the very best. Period!"
                        - Car and Driver, January 1992


##

Subject:      AMAP and TDI
Date:         2 Apr 93 13:45:25 CST6CDT
From: "Mike Jiang"  <[e-mail]>

What is AMAP and TDI?

Mike Jiang

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum."    | email==> [e-mail]  |
| "I think that I think,              | or    [e-mail]  |
|  therefore I think that I am."      |                              |
----------------------------------------------------------------------


##

Subject: lghtwv vs imagine
Date:    Fri, 2 Apr 93 17:16 EST
From: "Robert A. Gougher" <[e-mail]>

I may be mistaken (and if I am PLEASE tell me how to do it), but imagine's tran
sparency function makes the onject transparent (ie stained glass window) rather
 than creating a real transparency through which the color values of whatever o
bject are filtered. Right?

                                                        Rob


##

Subject: Re: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 93 14:32:15 CST
From: [e-mail] (Thomas Setzer)

> From [e-mail] Fri Apr  2 14:21:33 1993
> To: David Ingebretsen <[e-mail]>
>
> >>   basically only a couple polygons with transparency maps (this is how its
> >>   done in actual flight simulators).
>
> >     Don't tell how we do it!!!! :)
> >     Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp.
> >     [e-mail]
>
> Uh, oops, uh, what I meant to say was....They use a complex proprietory
> geometric model consuming several thousand lines of code and based on high level fractal mathmatics that even Ivan Sutherland does not fully understand.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Good, this is how I implemented it.  I was beginning to wonder if I was
missing something.  :)


Tom Setzer
[e-mail]

"And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery
intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" - Calvin


##

Subject: Re: Mannequin
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 93 15:22:28 CST
From: Wayne Haufler <[e-mail]>

Rich Nollman ([e-mail]) wrote a very interesting review of
Mannequin.
> I got a chance to take a look at an interesting program called
> Mannequin on the PC platform this morning.  It could be of interest to
> Imagine users.
> ...

Mannequin does sound like an impressive product.

With all this talk about 3-D models of humans, I'm surprised nobody
has mentioned "CycleMan".  Just so that you all realize that a good model
of a human does exist in Imagine format, though with its own limitations,
I have provided here a rouph comparison of the two.

>From an old Imagine post on Feb 24, 1992:
>From @mitvma.mit.edu:[e-mail] Mon Feb 24 19:39:36 1992
> Assuming you mean Tim Wilson's CycleMan, ...
> Incidentally, the Cycleman object is a really nicely defined set of walking/
> running cycles with a well articulated male figure.  The motion is superb,
> and the manual gives some nice insight into complex cycle editor constructions
> Ivan

Cycleman is (or was) a ~$30 Imagine cycle objects of a man standing, walking,
and running.

To compare Mannequin and Cycleman:

> The program (Mannequin) creates wireframe and solid humanoid figures of
> all types and sizes.

Cycleman is only one basic man model.

> All the joints are movable including joints in the figures and toes.

Cycleman also has all joints, including figures (ie. fingers), but
a foot is modeled as one or two solid units.  Toes are not modeled.

> The head is featureless

Cycleman has moveable jaws, lips (somewhat), eyes, and eyelids.
The face is human-like, but expressions would be very difficult to model.
He has no hair, though.  That would be very difficult to model well.

> The movement of the parts of the body of each
> figure has been calibrated so that it cannot move beyond what is
> considered a normal point in relation to the rest of the body.

Cycleman is a full Imagine cycle object, and allows for realistic motion.
Unfortunately, Imagine does not have adjustable movement limits,
which would be nice to have in 3.0.


In the Cycleman manual were hints of future cycle objects of animals.
After all this time since it came out, I wonder if Tim Wilson is
planning on releasing an improved Cycleman or other cycle objects?

I do remember a Lightwave version of Cycleman was released.
I think "Anti-Gravity Labs" (?) was involved in someway.

         __
\\ /\\ /\\ //_    Wayne A. Haufler   [Christian/SW Engineer/XWindows/Amigan]
 \/--\// \//__    [e-mail]    McDonnell Douglas-Houston
     //           Hobby:  "Computer Animations For Christian Endeavors"


##

Subject: Cycleman
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1993 18:24:25 PST
From: [e-mail]

Not only is Cycleman bald as an egg, he also lacks ears.  I found that
making "clothing" other than form-fitting leotard-type garments was quite
a chore, since they "follow" the body's movement, but will have a different
trajectory depending on the style and the motion of the form.

Steve


##

Subject: Mannequin
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 93 00:10:26 MST
From: [e-mail] (David Ingebretsen)

   Date: Fri, 2 Apr 93 15:22:28 CST
   From: Wayne Haufler <[e-mail]>

   Rich Nollman ([e-mail]) wrote a very interesting review of
   Mannequin.
   > I got a chance to take a look at an interesting program called

Comparison between Cycleman and Mannequin deleted...

   In the Cycleman manual were hints of future cycle objects of animals.
   After all this time since it came out, I wonder if Tim Wilson is
   planning on releasing an improved Cycleman or other cycle objects?

   I do remember a Lightwave version of Cycleman was released.
   I think "Anti-Gravity Labs" (?) was involved in someway.

Tim and Anti-Gravity are the same. I spoke to Tim on the phone a
couple of weeks ago and he said that he is nearing the completion of
several more figures; man, woman, child, etc. He said they would be
more refined than cycleman.


    David

    David M. Ingebretsen
    Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp.
    [e-mail]

    Disclaimer: The content of this message in no way reflects the
                opinions of my employer, nor are my actions
            encouraged, supported, or acknowledged by my
            employer.


##

Subject: Essence tips
Date:     Sat, 3 Apr 1993 13:55:54 +0200
From: Hannes Heckner <[e-mail]>

Well the talk about 3D-Tress with imagine was very interesting
(keep on going ... :-))
But what about starting a talk about essence settings which look
fine (e.g. fire, clouds, water, marble )
How about collecting them in a FAQ ???

Hannes

PS: Well I am very very very disappointed about Steve Worley. About
three months ago he said he would provide a email description
of the essence newsletter to the registered essence users outside
america (e.g. europe). But this was a only a promise. Even emailing
him several times led to NOTHING. I know that steves reputation
on this list is very high. But this is only my experience I got
Sorry about this but I bought essence and am only asking for the
same support all other american users already got

A very disappointed essence user
Hannes


##

Subject: Re: Vertex & 3D Trees
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 93 18:35:45 EST
From: [e-mail] (Alex Deburie)


Well, the trees are done. Pretty kool, if I say so myself. It's a
bit to control, like most random fractals are, but there's paramteres
for the beginning and ending diamater, # points in cross section (from
3 to as many as you have memory for), a twist parameter, taper
percentage, max # of branches, branch frequency, branch forking angle,
and a seed value. It's easy to mess with the parameters using a cross
section of 3 until you get the right tree, then just increase the
cross section to 10 or so to get the exact same tree, but with better
resolution.

I've yet to come to a decision about leaves. I could make individual
leaves, perhaps with a 1x1 grid which is kind of draped, or I could
just define some fractal clumps which hover around the branches. This
might be the best, as I'm sure there are some fractal texture maps
which could be made to at least resemble leaves.

I'll make a small forest (small, for sure. Good looking trees seem to
take about 1000+ triangles), and upload it to Portal, if anyone is
interested.

  -- Alex Deburie
     [e-mail]
     The Art Machine

PS: Registered Vertex owners may be interested to know that I'm
    making quite a bit of progress on the new improved version.
    Polygon filling, more file formats, full attribute support
    (including a nice attribute editor w/copy and paste), a more
    integrated interface, math-co support, general speed ups (like
    Delete Duplicate Edges - 350% faster, Imagine Saves - 250% faster)
    and a lot more is on the way (like the trees, EPS support,+).
    While I'm knee deep in the code, let me know of any features
    you'd like to see.


##

Subject: Re: Essence Tips
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 93 17:57:11 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Steve Worley)

Hannes Heckner writes:

> PS: Well I am very very disappointed about Steve Worley. About
> three months ago he said he would provide a email description
> of the essence newsletter to the registered essence users outside
> america (e.g. europe).

Hannes, as I explained to you in email, the newsletter was a printed
flyer, not text sent out in email. Since it was composed on a
Macintosh using Postscript figures and layout software, there's no
easy way to make an email version, though I had hoped to. The
newsletter was mailed to all US and Canadian registered Essence users.
The only reason it was not sent to overseas users was cost: Essence is
a VERY cheap piece of software ($80 retail, versus something like
Imagine, which retails for six times as much) and the profit from each
Essence sale is less than $15.  Overseas shipping is about $2, which
is a large chunk of this profit.

There's not much I can do about the economics of sending out the
newsletter.  Sending me $2 in postage each time a newsletter comes out
would work, but that's awfully awkward for such a small amount. But I
don't have any better ideas. :-( Since the newsletter came out in
January, I've included a copy with all the overseas shipments.

> Sorry about this but I bought essence and am only asking for the
> same support all other american users already got.

The problem is that overseas users aren't quite the same as US and
Canadian users for a small company selling a realtively inexpensive
piece of software. I can mail the newsletter to the US and Canada for
$0.39, but overseas postage is five times that amount.

I think we've had some miscommunication about this problem. Hannes, we
can discuss this further via email: I have two email addresses,
"[e-mail]" and "[e-mail]" in case there's any
mail problems.

> Well the talk about 3D-Tress with imagine was very interesting
> (keep on going ... :-))
> But what about starting a talk about essence settings which look
> fine (e.g. fire, clouds, water, marble )
> How about collecting them in a FAQ ???

Hey, this is a great idea. Especially since Hubcap has disappeared,
keeping useful information like this archived in the IML FAQ might be
the "safest" place for them.

Keep on rendering!

-Steve
[e-mail]


##

Subject: Re: ViewTek 1.04  & A4000 problems
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 93 21:23:45 MET
From: [e-mail] (Paul Kolenbrander)

Hello Ralph Seguin,
On 31 MAR 1993 14:46:06 you said regarding ViewTek 1.04  & A4000 problems:

>
> I think I may be alone in this, but Viewtek 1.04 is _NOT_ working for
> me.  It'll load an anim and display the first frame and then lock up
> my machine.  The older version works fine (but, of course, doesn't
> play anim7 format either ;).  In any case, here's my config:
>
> WB3.0
> A4000/040, 2M CHIP, 16M FAST, A2091, Fujitsu 2624SA 520M, A2065
> ethernet, 1080 monitor.

Strange. I used it to play both anim5 and anim7 animations and it did
work. Albeit with the known palette-change bug... No locking up though
And it even played a 3.8M animation...

And here's my config:
WB3.0 (KS 39.106 / WB 39.29)
A4000/040 2M CHIP, 8M FAST
A2091 (rev 7.0b ROM) with 0 - Quantum LPS52
                          1 - Quantum ProDrive80S
                          4 - Matsushita CR-501 CD-ROM
                          5 - SyQuest 44MB removable...
Golden Gate-II BridgeCard (Dave Salamon's baby)

CYa, Paul
--
Paul Kolenbrander  \ InterNet: [e-mail]
Turfveldenstraat 37 \ Fido: 2:284/114.3 Paul Kolenbrander
NL-5632 XH EINDHOVEN | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Voice: [phone] | Timezone:GMT+1 | Fax: [phone]


##

Subject: Re: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 93 15:57:25 MET
From: [e-mail] (Paul Kolenbrander)

Hello John Foust / Syndesis Corporation,
On 01 APR 1993 11:26:54 you said regarding Re: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE:

> You want to convert a Sculpt .scene to an Imagine object.
> [e-mail] recommended Pixel 3D, but of course he was just
> doing that to annoy me, the maker of a much better and less expensive
> 3D conversion package, InterChange Plus.

Hold on please. Pixel-3D is not a 3D conversion program only, it's main
object is to convert 2D bitmapped stuff to 3D objects for the various
programs. At least that's what I use it for...

> Pixel retails for $249.95, InterChange Plus at $99.95.  Our direct
> sale price is less than Pixel's upgrade price.  Call [phone]
> for more info about ICP.  Mention that you saw this message on the
> Imagine mailing list, and you can get the full package for $69.95, no
> shipping, no handling, no extra charge for credit cards (unlike
> Axiom.)

Does Interchange Plus for $ 69.95 have the modules to exchange (load/
save) objects/scenes between the following formats included? (at no
extra charges?)

LightWave 3D            3D Professional       Turbo Silver
AutoCAD DXF             WaveFront             VideoScape Binary/ASCII
Imagine                 Sculpt 3D             Draw-4D/4D-Pro
Caligari                Vista Pro             Scenery Animatoor DEM

And can it be used to convert 2D bitmaps to 3D objects including beveling,
extrudes and such? If so, is that offer also valid for European readers
of the IML? What I use Pixel-3D (oldest version. I don't like their update
prices either) for mostly, is converting stuff from 2D bitmaps to Imagine
objects and to convert Lightwave and Sculpt stuff to Imagine format. Can
Interchange plus do that for me to? If so, I'd rather pay $70.- for Inter-
change than about $150 (guesstimate) to upgrade to Pixel Pro... And since
I do freelance writing for a Dutch Amiga magazine, a review [objective,
I cannot be bought. :-)] might also be a distinct possibility...

CYa, Paul
--
-I'm not prejudiced. I hate everyone equally.
--
Paul Kolenbrander  \ InterNet: [e-mail]
Turfveldenstraat 37 \ Fido: 2:284/112.1 Paul Kolenbrander
NL-5632 XH EINDHOVEN | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Voice: [phone] | Timezone:GMT+1 | Fax: [phone]


##

Subject: Re: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1993 11:39:44 +0000 (   )
From: Colin Stobbe <[e-mail]>

On Fri, 2 Apr 1993, David Watters wrote:

> 1:  You will need to have the camera and lighting in both imagine and VP/SA
>     exactly the same.  You will also need the focal length the same.
                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is NOT as easy as it sounds.  Especially if you're getting close to
the landscape.  It's the technique I'm using for an animation I'm working
on, and it's driving me MAAAAAAD.  :)

> 2:  Assuming you have solved the above, you can not move the camera unless you
>     do it the same (frame accurate) for both.
>
> 3:  All object movement will abviously be on top of the back drop.  Now you
>     could do a combination of a backdrop and foreground, but how you create
>     those in VP/SA will be tricky.

Excessively tricky, took me a day to get a tree in 5 frames to move infront
of my objects (though most of that time was figuring out what the heck I
had to do).

           Colin


##

Subject: Anim7
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 93 23:22:56 PDT
From: [e-mail] (Rev Lebaredian)

  Well, after bangin my head trying to solve my problems with anim7 for
a couple days I have decided to ask all you kind souls out there in
netland...
  I created a 180 frame animation with imagine in DCTV resolution, and
converted all the frames to 3-bit DCTV format.  I then loaded all the
frames into DpaintIV and saved the animation(as an anim5), and converted
it to anim7 using the utility supplied with ViewTek v1.04.  I had no
apparent problems up to this point, but when I played the animation using
ViewTek, it had some seemingly random noise and would not loop properly
(it played well until it came to the first two frames where it slowed
down to about 2fps).  I tried recompiling the animtion without adding
the first two frames at the end using mkanim, but that didn't work either.
Any suggestions?  Or maybe alternative programs I could use to create or
view Anim7s?  Thank you...


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                                    "My moral standing is lying down."
                                                    [e-mail]


##

Subject: Phone number of Syndesis
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 93 11:07:32 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Rich Nollman)

Horst,

No doubt you have been following the discussion of Interchange and
Pixel 3D.  I talked on the phone with John Foust (Syndesis) and he
said the Interchange Plus will convert to a DXF file the full
hierarchy of objects and subobjects in Imagine.  But Intechange Plus
is $69.95 for the base package PLUS $150 for the DXF converter (I know
what the PLUS in INTERCHANGE PLUS is for!).  Pixed 3D is list price:
$249.95 BUT is it generally sold for $100 less from mail order houses
and it includes the DXF converter and a mess of other converters as
part of the package.  The big question is: what is the difference
between the quality of conversion?  John Foust claims the the Pixel 3D
conversion is greatly inferior to the Interchange Plus conversion thus
justifying the added cost of Interchange Plus.

I am proposing an objective comparison by people in the Imagine
Mailing list who have either product.  I am also eager for Tim Wilson
to releate his latest Cyclexxx (man, woman, child, animals?) product.

Rich


##

Subject: Re: Mannequin
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 93 10:53:49 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Rich Nollman)

Wayne Haufler's comparison of Mannequin and Cycleman was very fair.  I
was using Cycleman just this morning.  It is a great package.  The
only limitation is the fact that there is only one type of figure.

I do not have either Pixel 3D or Interchange Plus (and due to some
rather large recent purchases of computer equipment and software, I
will not have the cash to buy them in the near future).  My idea is to
create some test figures and provide them to someone who has the most
recent version of Pixel 3D and to a person who has Interchange Plus.
They can make the conversion from DXF to Imagine and load them to an
FTP site.  (I do not have access to an FTP at present so I would have
to mail diskettes to the file conversion owners and mail me back a
diskette with the converted objects of course.)  Then anyone who wants
them can access them and try them out.  At some point there will be a
consensus about the relative merits of each package.

Is this a good idea?

Rich Nollman


##

Subject: re: essence tips
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 93 13:22:02 EST
From: Adam Benjamin <[e-mail]>

Steve Worley writes:
>Hannes Heckner writes:
>> PS: Well I am very very disappointed about Steve Worley. About
>> three months ago he said he would provide a email description
>> of the essence newsletter to the registered essence users outside
>> america (e.g. europe).

>Hannes, as I explained to you in email, the newsletter was a printed
>flyer, not text sent out in email. Since it was composed on a
>Macintosh using Postscript figures and layout software, there's no
>easy way to make an email version, though I had hoped to.
...Remainder deleted....

Doesn't someone out there have some OCR capable scanner that could
scan in the newsletter and FTP it to someplace? (with Steves
permission of course)

Adam B.


##

Subject: Phone number of Syndesis
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 93 14:10:40 +0100
From: [e-mail] (Heberle H.)

Hi Rich,
this is the phone number of Syndesis, I think the right one.
Call [phone] for more info about Interchange+.
Perhaps it`s possible to get a connection to John Foust through this call?
Horst Heberle
[e-mail]


##

Subject: Re: Anim7
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 93 13:09:35 EDT
From: Mark Thompson <[e-mail]>

> when I played the animation using
> ViewTek, it had some seemingly random noise and would not loop properly
> (it played well until it came to the first two frames where it slowed
> down to about 2fps).

Hit the "c" key during the animation and see if that fixes it. The viewtek
docs explain this but it is to toggle continuous mode and has to do with
looping animations.
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
%      `       '        Mark Thompson                 CONCURRENT COMPUTER  %
% --==* RADIANT *==--   [e-mail]        Principal Graphics   %
%      ' Image `        ...!uunet!masscomp!mark       Hardware Architect   %
%     Productions       [phone] [phone]   & General Nuisance   %
%                                                                          %
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


##

Subject: Re: Re: 3D-trees to use in IMAGINE
Date: 05 Apr 93 18:14:28 EDT
From: John Foust / Syndesis Corporation <[e-mail]>

To: >internet: [e-mail]

[e-mail] (Paul Kolenbrander) writes:
> Hold on please. Pixel-3D is not a 3D conversion program only, it's main

Yes, I understand.  In the original context of this message thread,
someone recommended Pixel as a format conversion program, not as an
autotracer.

I pointed out that Pixel is a poor translator, especially considering
its inflated price, and that InterChange Plus does a much better job
of converting between formats.  InterChange Plus doesn't have any
autotracing abilities at this point.

InterChange Plus includes Converters for LightWave objects and
scenes, Imagine, Vista Pro DEMs, Turbo Silver 2.0 and 3.0, Sculpt,
VideoScape v1.0/2.0 ASCII and binary, Imagemaster ISHAPEs,
PAGErender, Aegis Draw, Pro Draw, the InterFont outline-based 3D text
generator, and several more Tools for manipulating objects.

As for the other formats, we do sell add-on Converters for Wavefront,
Digital Arts, AutoCAD DXF, 3D Studio and Topas.  Don't be mislead by
Pixel's box - they don't really handle Wavefront, DXF or Digital Arts
formats in any significant way.  We do.

As for the other formats you listed, it makes no sense for us to
continue to support formats from programs that are no longer sold, or
formats for programs that support any of the other formats we do
support.

Supporting formats like Caligari can be a nightmare.  It has a lot of
troubles with any objects imported from other formats.  If we had a
Caligari Converter, people would blame the bad renderings on our
Converter and not the Caligari program.

We must charge $7 shipping to international customers.  On the bright
side, we always mail our newsletters to every customer, including
those outside the USA.


##

Subject: Mannequin
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 93 16:00:14 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Rich Nollman)

Dave,

Do you have the telephone number and/or address of Tim Wilson's company,
Anti-Gravity?

Rich Nollman


##

Subject: re: essence tips
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 93 14:22:27 EDT
From: [e-mail] (William V. Swartz)

>
> Steve Worley writes:
> >Hannes Heckner writes:
> >> PS: Well I am very very disappointed about Steve Worley. About
> >> three months ago he said he would provide a email description
> >> of the essence newsletter to the registered essence users outside
> >> america (e.g. europe).
>
> >Hannes, as I explained to you in email, the newsletter was a printed
> >flyer, not text sent out in email. Since it was composed on a
> >Macintosh using Postscript figures and layout software, there's no
> >easy way to make an email version, though I had hoped to.
> ...Remainder deleted....
>
> Doesn't someone out there have some OCR capable scanner that could
> scan in the newsletter and FTP it to someplace? (with Steves
> permission of course)
>
> Adam B.
>

  I don't know if I can do the ocr but I'd be glad to scan it into a large
graphic file, jpeg it (compress it), encode it, and email it to Hannes.
That is if Steve says it is ok.  And then Hannes should send me his eaddress.

  //
\X/ -BiL-
    [e-mail]             (See my 'Imagine'-ary signature below)


##

Subject: Re: Anim7
Date: Mon,  5 Apr 1993 19:50:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jose Vazquez <[e-mail]>

I've been waitning for a while for someone to mention the address of
viewtek. COuld somebody please post it again. PLEASE!!!!!

Jose Vazquez


##

Subject: Full Page Imagine Ad in Computer Graphics World - April 93
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 93 15:20:12 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael B. Comet)

    Well, I just got my Computer Graphics World issue today, for
those that have it, you may want to check out page 26.

    It seems that Impulse is now placing an add for the new "Imagine
PC".  It also of course mentions the Amiga, and they also say that the
program will soon run on SGI Indigo's.  (In case you have one lying
around :) ).

    I hope this means Imagine PC is shipping!



--
+======================================================================+
|  Michael B. Comet -   Software Engineer / Graphics Artist  - CWRU    |
|  [e-mail]  - "Silence those who oppose the freedom of speech" |
+======================================================================+


##

Subject: VT problems...
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 93 18:52:43 -0700
From: [e-mail]

I've been having some problems with VT.  I created a 150 frame 736x482x4
DCTV animation.  Then I used ADAM to reprocess the frames to 736x241x4
DCTV frames and made an Anim5 animation.  View 3.2 (by Michael W. Hartman)
plays the file fine (on both the Amiga monitor and my composite monitor
for the DCTV output).  However, VT 1.04 has problems positioning the picture;
in other words, DCTV isn't getting its "magic cookie".  The animation
plays on the Amiga monitor but nothing comes up on the composite monitor.
I've tried forcing VT into hires nolace but that doesn't seem to work.

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance for any information!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian M. Aljian                                                 // Only Amiga
[e-mail]                                           // makes it
"Procrastinators do it tomorrow."                           \\// possible...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


##

Subject: 3D trees
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 93 07:20:12 -0700
From: Joe C Solinsky <[e-mail]>

Hey, E&S people, I have news for you: that is how EVERYONE does it!! We have
been doing that trick at Ball Systems since I was knee-high to a polyhemus
digitizer.  Besides, the trees still look flat anyway!  If you want really good
trees, then you need to know secret number two, which I will not share because
I can't (my boss doesn't want my mouth open for that long).
-Joe Solinsky


##

Subject: re: essence tips
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 93 18:43:18 -0700
From: [e-mail]

>From: Adam Benjamin <[e-mail]>
>
>Steve Worley writes:
>
>>Hannes, as I explained to you in email, the newsletter was a printed
>>flyer, not text sent out in email. Since it was composed on a
>>Macintosh using Postscript figures and layout software, there's no
>>easy way to make an email version, though I had hoped to.
>...Remainder deleted....
>
>Doesn't someone out there have some OCR capable scanner that could
>scan in the newsletter and FTP it to someplace? (with Steves
>permission of course)

Better idea: most Macintosh page layout software has the ability to
print to a PostScript file.  So Steve, can't you do this and E-Mail
the PostScript file to the individuals who request it?  (And to keep
the file size down, just make sure not to include the fonts in the file!)
Most people have access to a PostScript laser printer or interpreter.

This is just a suggestion... it may not work depending on the software,
how big the file would be, etc...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian M. Aljian                                                 // Only Amiga
[e-mail]                                           // makes it
"Procrastinators do it tomorrow."                           \\// possible...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


##

Subject: Anim7
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 93 23:42:55 PDT
From: [e-mail] (Rev Lebaredian)

  Thanks(Mark Thompson) for the 'C' suggestion.  It solved the problem.
I am truly amazed at the capability of anim7 combined with DCTV...  I
swear it's 30FPS!!!

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                                    "My moral standing is lying down."
                                                    [e-mail]


##

Subject: Re: Anim7
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1993 18:50:43 -0400
From: Udo K Schuermann <[e-mail]>

[e-mail] (Rev Lebaredian) writes:
> [Anim7 problem w/ ViewTek]
> Any suggestions?  Or maybe alternative programs I could use to create or
> view Anim7s?  Thank you...

I've personally had good luck with AAC and AAP, a compiler/converter
program and a player (anim5, anim7, from disk or ram.)  The package is
available on one of the Fish disks as (AAC_AAP or AAP_AAC -- can't ever
remember which way around they're listed ...)

I hope this helps.

 ._.  Udo Schuermann     "Until the philosophy which holds one race superior
 ( )  [e-mail]  and another inferior is finally and permanently dis-
 Enjoying virtual memory  credited and abandoned, everywhere is war!" -- BM/HS


##

Subject: Re: 3D trees
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 93 17:52:04 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    Hey, E&S people, I have news for you: that is how EVERYONE does it!! We
    have been doing that trick at Ball Systems since I was knee-high to a
    polyhemus digitizer.  Besides, the trees still look flat anyway!  If
    you want really good trees, then you need to know secret number two,
    which I will not share because I can't (my boss doesn't want my mouth
    open for that long).
    -Joe Solinsky

----------------------------------------------------------
Don't worry... I have a friend which made a forest simulator
and is working on smoke simulations... Hopefully I can convince
him to use Imagine.

Is there any programmers here which deal with 3D graphics on the
programming level??

That is what my friend does...


##

Subject: DXF conversion
Date: 06 Apr 93 19:58:56 EDT
From: John Foust / Syndesis Corporation <[e-mail]>

To: >internet: [e-mail]

[e-mail] (Rich Nollman) writes:
> is $69.95 for the base package PLUS $150 for the DXF converter (I know
> what the PLUS in INTERCHANGE PLUS is for!).  Pixed 3D is list price:

Let's get some perspective here:  AutoCAD costs $3000 +-200, and it
requires a $3000 PC.  Typical utilities in the inch-thick Autodesk
third-party catalog cost $500.  InterChange Plus is probably the
least expensive tool in the book.  At $200, we're still cheaper than
Pixel, and we do a much better job of conversion.

As far as I can tell, Pixel 3D Pro handles the "3DFACE" entity, and
that's about it.  It's clear that Axiom doesn't have any real
experience with AutoCAD - the objects they translate are turned 90
degrees from where they were in AutoCAD.

3DFACE is the closest thing DXF has to a polygon.  There are dozens
of other DXF entities.  If you're curious about the relevance of the
others, check out the (dusty but otherwise OK) DXF spec on the
'avalon' Internet site.

If you'd like to compare DXF translators, I'd be glad to offer
whatever help you need.  On the other hand, if you're coming at CAD
and DXF and AutoCAD out of the blue, then your comparison could be
useless.  You can't simply grab example DXF files from the Internet,
run them through translators, and declare a winner.

Syndesis's translator is clearly superior in one way - we support our
product, and we know what we're talking about.  If you think that
$150 is too much to ask, and you'd rather try to squeeze technical
support out of the answering service at Axiom, I wish you luck.  :-)

I wrote an article in an early issue of Avid on this topic.  Later,
this article became part of the "DXF Primer" we have.  For $10, we'll
send you a copy of this article, plus the entire manual to the DXF
Converter, so you can get a feel for the hassles of using DXF in
general, and in specific, see exactly what we handle.

We also give you a coupon worth $10 on the $150 purchase price, so
there's hardly any risk.  Please compare this to the one-paragraph
total documentation that Axiom supplies for their DXF translation.


##

Subject: Products N More
Date: Tue,  6 Apr 93 20:26:24 PDT
From: [e-mail]

Greetings Renderers Worldwide!  :-)

Just thought I'd pop in and thank John Foust for his
$69.95 offer to members of the IML for the base
Interchange Plus product. I for one have taken him up on
his offer.

I think giving a large group of special interest computerists
like us a special price on a product is an excellent way for
a manufacturer to achieve market penetration.

Hopefully, other software manufacturers will see the
symbiotic benefit in this as well.

Still-Store is still being offered to members of the IML for
$39.95 from Graphic Imagination as well, so if you want to
take advantage of these two special offers, don't sit there
reading MY drivel....ORDER 'em.

Naturally, you will need your official laser holographically
enhanced IML membership card with the official handshake
outlined on the back.  :-)

As an aside, I thought I'd let you know that the IML Site
computer (email.sp.paramax.com) is in the process of being
upgraded, and the up and down nature of this procedure is
apparently what was causing duplicate posts. When the new
installation is complete, we should have much faster
turn-around on the posts, more reliable delivery and...AND...
the Sys Admin (Dale Bennett) has informed me that he has
recently uncovered a method by which we can ELIMINATE the
irritating "Bounce Effect" we get every time we post to the
list.

Upon hearing this, I immediately fell to my knees singing
hosannas to the heavens. I will let you know more as it
comes my way.


Dave Wickard  [phone]   "Lilith is a good woman, durable
[e-mail]        and reliable. She'd make a helluva
[e-mail]       radial tire."  -Cheers Quote


##

Subject: Phone number of Syndesis
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 93 10:04:57 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Rich Nollman)

Horst,

I talked to him last week.  He also sent me mail today indicating that he
would be willing to convert one of the Mannequin DFX files to Imagine and
send it to me so that I can try it out.  I hope Scott over at Axiom (Pixel
3D) will do the same.  Then we can get a good comparison of the power of
their respective conversion programs.

Rich


##

Subject: Re: Anim7
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 93 21:16:26 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

HAas anyone made a Utah raster toolkit animation subformat
to Amiga ANIM converter??? I'm interested becuase I want to create
a animation using Imagine and Rayshade 4.0 (on a system school
which is much faster) but I want to put the animations into
a ANIM format becuase the system at school crashes if I try to
view animations through X using the RLE format from URT.

Anyone know??

If it is not possible I will have to JPEG everything and
form the animations at home frame by frame which seems to be a
bit tedious...

Also, I wondering if anyone has a program that would allow me to
take a path from Imagine and convert it into a series of cammera
movements and angles... I could write the code to do the conversion
from their format to Rayshade's "eyep" and "lookp" functions.
My alternative is to find a way to parse files output from
one of those TDDD2xxxx conversion programs... Don't sweat...
If it is not available, I think it will be good for me to
get back into using C. Thanks!!!!


##

Subject: Re: Phone number of Syndesis
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 93 21:55:07 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    Horst,

    I talked to him last week. He also sent me mail today indicating that he
    would be willing to convert one of the Mannequin DFX files to Imagine
    and send it to me so that I can try it out.  I hope Scott over at Axiom
    (Pixel 3D) will do the same.  Then we can get a good comparison of the
    power of their respective conversion programs.

    Rich

----------------------------------------
Do the manequin objects have any hierarchy to them?? Like can you
arrange to move a thunb, hand and such individually???
I have a human object that I am making from parts of objects
but the size of the object is about 400K in Imagine format (you
can IMAGINE how large it is when i convert it to Rayshade format,
3 megs, left nothing for the IMAGINation eh?). I sat down
and took the Human object found on many networks and
add a set of simple hands which were partly digitized versions
of my own hands. If anyone wants a copy of the object I can
put it on the nets. I rearranged the human object in a
proper hierarchy (with joints in the right place) so that
you don't have to work much to make the limbs move into
common positions. But the human object I have has no face
or close to nothing and I really really want to add a face,
say something like Cindy Crawford's face (as suggested to me
by a fan of CC's and friend).

If none noticed the human object on the nets is a female object,
though I have nothing against that.. If I try to make a
male object from it it looks like a deflated sex doll.
So I am not screwing with it (I created pun... whooops).
Sorry I offended anyone... I will cut that sick mind of mine..
Anyways, anyone know where I could get a decent looking human
object???

A friend told me that someone put a entire human skeleton in Imagine
format, is this true??? On the networks??? where?? Thanks!!!

[e-mail]
Kiernan Holland (UNM-LA computer consultant)


##

Subject: Re: DXF conversion
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 93 20:31:09 PDT
From: [e-mail] (Rev Lebaredian)

>
> [e-mail] (Rich Nollman) writes:
> > is $69.95 for the base package PLUS $150 for the DXF converter (I know
> > what the PLUS in INTERCHANGE PLUS is for!).  Pixed 3D is list price:
>
> Let's get some perspective here:  AutoCAD costs $3000 +-200, and it
> requires a $3000 PC.  Typical utilities in the inch-thick Autodesk
> third-party catalog cost $500.  InterChange Plus is probably the
> least expensive tool in the book.  At $200, we're still cheaper than
> Pixel, and we do a much better job of conversion.
>
  Yes, but at $200 you do not convert all the other formats Pixel Does, not to
mention 2D bit maps(with smoothing, beveling, extruding, etc..)

  Now let's stop this inane one-sided flame war you're conducting. It
is very unprofessional of you and presents a very negative image to
your company.  I for one will not go out and buy your product just
because of that first flame you posted. I was going to respond to it
but stopped myself figuring it would be the last.  I am dissapointed
in seeing a tolerance for such an unprofessional post in the Imagine
Mailing List.  I hope it will be the last.


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                                    "My moral standing is lying down."
                                                    [e-mail]


##

Subject: Phone number of Syndesis
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 93 20:29:25 EDT
From: [e-mail] (Bob Lindabury - SysAdm)

rutgers!sni-usa.com!rnollman (Rich Nollman) writes:

> part of the package.  The big question is: what is the difference
> between the quality of conversion?  John Foust claims the the Pixel 3D
> conversion is greatly inferior to the Interchange Plus conversion thus
> justifying the added cost of Interchange Plus.
>
> I am proposing an objective comparison by people in the Imagine
> Mailing list who have either product.  I am also eager for Tim Wilson
> to releate his latest Cyclexxx (man, woman, child, animals?) product.
>
> Rich

I have both packages.  I do my conversions with InterChange Plus and
I do my bitmap conversions with Pixel 3D Professional.  If you are
going to work in 3D I think you really need both packages.  I find
the cost of the DXF converter prohibative in InterChange Plus however
for the amount of DXF conversions I would have to do.  However, if
you are getting *paid* to do a conversion and subsequent render then
the module will more than pay for itself.

I may be mistaken here but I find that Interchange Plus does not
reduce the data (polygons from 3 sided to multiple sides) when
converting to Lightwave or Videoscape.  I usually have to load my
converted objects into Pixel to reduce the data.

I miss the Wavefront converter in Interchange but with the Toaster I
can just load in Wavefront objects because a converter is built in as
is a DXF converter.  No attributes are converted with the built in
converters for Lightwave however.

-- Bob

 The Graphics BBS  908/469-0049  "It's better than a sharp stick in the eye!"
 ============================================================================
  InterNet: [e-mail]                | Raven Enterprises
      UUCP: ...rutgers!bobsbox!graphics!bobl      | 25 Raven Avenue
    BitNet: bobl%graphics.rent.com@pucc           | Piscataway, NJ 08854
    Home #: 908/560-7353                          | 908/271-8878


##

Subject: Re: Full Page Imagine Ad in Computer Graphics World - April 93
Date: 07 Apr 1993 03:08:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Alan Braggins, SDL" <[e-mail]>

> PC".  It also of course mentions the Amiga, and they also say that the
> program will soon run on SGI Indigo's.  (In case you have one lying
> around :) ).

We have a few at work - they aren't exactly lying around, but the porting group
aren't using them the _whole_ time. Any indication of price or date?

On the other hand, you did say this was the April issue?


##

Subject: Re: DXF conversion
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 93 9:43:31 EDT
From: [e-mail] (Stephen Pietrowicz)

[e-mail] writes:

>   Yes, but at $200 you do not convert all the other formats Pixel Does, not to
> mention 2D bit maps(with smoothing, beveling, extruding, etc..)
>
>   Now let's stop this inane one-sided flame war you're conducting. It
> is very unprofessional of you and presents a very negative image to
> your company.  I for one will not go out and buy your product just
> because of that first flame you posted. I was going to respond to it
> but stopped myself figuring it would be the last.  I am dissapointed
> in seeing a tolerance for such an unprofessional post in the Imagine
> Mailing List.  I hope it will be the last.

If you think it's unprofessional to point out problems with another product,
then that's up to you.  I think it's better for people to be aware of the
problems.   For all the flames that Black Belt Systems and ASDG have tossed
at each other, both sides have benefited by having stronger products.

Which formats does Pixel handle *correctly* that InterChange Plus doesn't,
or isn't covered by an overlap in the product you're converting to? Personally,
I'd much rather have a program that fully supported object conversions
correctly than a program that did an inadequate job.  Pixel's goof of
handling object hierarchies incorrectly is a good example of an inadequate
job.  So is it's botched handling of DXF, Wavefront, and Digital Arts
formats.  If someone needs to do a DXF conversions, they should have a tool
that does the job right, not something that just tries to do it right.

If reviewers took the time to do real reviews on products rather than just
glancing at a product, things like this would come out, and it's about time
they did.

Everyone should take Syndesis up on that offer.  At $69.95, Interchange
Plus is a bargain.  Call Syndesis at [phone] to order it.  If you
still need to do do 2D bit map conversions, spend the $200+ on Pixel Pro.
Better yet, just use Imagine's built-in IFF converter.  :-)


##

Subject: Phone number of Syndesis
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 93 10:31:05 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Rich Nollman)

Bob,

It seems to me that you are suggesting John Foust is indeed correct in
his assessment of Pixel 3D as a converter for DXF files to Imagine.  I
trust your judgement.  What is the difference in quality between
conversions by Pixel and Interchange Plus?  How much would I be losing
in quality if I use Pixel over Interchange?  I am willing to pay the
extra bucks for Interchange Plus and the DXF converter if necessary.  I just
want to make sure that it is justified.

Rich


##

Subject: Re: 3D trees
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 93 08:46:55 EDT
From: Mark Thompson <[e-mail]>

> Is there any programmers here which deal with 3D graphics on the
> programming level??

Well, yes, but...most of my 3D programs go into silicon :-)
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
%      `       '        Mark Thompson                 CONCURRENT COMPUTER  %
% --==* RADIANT *==--   [e-mail]        Principal Graphics   %
%      ' Image `        ...!uunet!masscomp!mark       Hardware Architect   %
%     Productions       [phone] [phone]   & General Nuisance   %
%                                                                          %
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


##

Subject: New version of Cycleman: Humanoid
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 93 13:43:45 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Rich Nollman)

I just got off the phone with Anti-Gravity (Tim Wilson of Cycleman
fame does work for them periodically).  The person told me that
Crestline (Tim's Company) will be releasing a new product called
Humanoid in about two weeks.  Registered Cycleman users should receive
some information by mail and will be eligable for a discount.  The
product will contain a normal male and female and an a "muscular hulk
type" version of the male.  There will also be the ability to morph
the figures into a child size (not exactly sure what that means).  The
person I spoke with said that the figures were very detailed.  He
mentioned that the eyes were really incredible.  He mentioned that
there was an ad in the recent VideoToaster User magazine (not sure
what this is) describing the upcoming release that might contain the
price (he was not sure of the price). The figures will be in Imagine
and Lightwave format.

Rich Nollman


##

Subject: Re: Full Page Imagine Ad in Computer Graphics World - April 93
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 93 11:22:20 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    > PC".  It also of course mentions the Amiga, and they also say that the
    > program will soon run on SGI Indigo's.  (In case you have one lying
    > around :) ).

    We have a few at work - they aren't exactly lying around, but the
    porting group aren't using them the _whole_ time. Any indication of
    price or date?

    On the other hand, you did say this was the April issue?

----------------------------------------
I hope I get a job at the Los Alamos lab this summer using thier
SGI GX's... People tell me that their are these SGI boxes that
are big and red which cost about 200,000+ dollars laying around there,
almost doing nothing.. It would be neat to get access to a SGI Onyx,
which a friend showed me a brochure for, which has 31 processors
on it.


##

Subject: Re: New version of Cycleman: Humanoid
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 93 16:29:34 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael B. Comet)

>
>
>I just got off the phone with Anti-Gravity (Tim Wilson of Cycleman
>fame does work for them periodically).  The person told me that
>Crestline (Tim's Company) will be releasing a new product called
>Humanoid in about two weeks.  Registered Cycleman users should receive
>some information by mail and will be eligable for a discount.  The
>product will contain a normal male and female and an a "muscular hulk
>type" version of the male.  There will also be the ability to morph
>the figures into a child size (not exactly sure what that means).  The
>person I spoke with said that the figures were very detailed.  He
>mentioned that the eyes were really incredible.  He mentioned that
>there was an ad in the recent VideoToaster User magazine (not sure
>what this is) describing the upcoming release that might contain the
>price (he was not sure of the price). The figures will be in Imagine
>and Lightwave format.
>
>Rich Nollman
>
>

    Yes, there is an add in this month's video toaster mag.  This is
a magazine that splitted off from AVID magazine and decdicated entriely
to New Teks Video Toaster.  Anyways, page 52 of the april/may issue has
almost a full page add labeled Humanoid.  It shows a full femals and
male 3d object.  It says it contains, a man, a muscular man, a woman and
a child.  Pre done motion cycles etc.... morphing so you can make them
speak, etc..., objects can be morphed so a woman->man->chjild is
possible.  Morphable hand poses as well.  $195 suggested price.
Discounts for those with MotiuonMan and CycleMan for  limited time.

CRESTLINE
Softwre Publishing'

P.O. Box 4691
Crestline, CA 92325 USA
(909) 338 - 1786

>
iPlease exuces the fricken typos.  The machine i am logged onto is very
slow right now so i am not bothering to go back to correct them.

    Hope this helps someone!



--
+======================================================================+
|  Michael B. Comet -   Software Engineer / Graphics Artist  - CWRU    |
|  [e-mail]  - "Silence those who oppose the freedom of speech" |
+======================================================================+